Item Trading

[ins]

I don't think that I'm creating a new issue out of nothing, here; if you change the rules and boundaries of a game, it's going to affect the way that game is played.  Think about how this works in sports, as an example.  Right now, there's a giant clamp coming down on headshots in multiple sports, since there is a recent movement towards better understanding and dealing with head trauma.  The way that American leagues have been implementing this (NFL, NHL, NBA) has mostly been through fines and suspensions (which are also a fine, since you don't get paid while you're suspended).  Sure, people still get hit in the head and some guys are still going to play dirty and take those headshots--but because it's costly to do so, most people have to evolve their game and stop aiming above the neck.  The new rules have directly affected the way that many players play the games now, and that's in turn going to change the way that the game is perceived on a number of important strategic levels.  In Football, for example, defensive players are still capable of lighting someone up with a big hit, but because it won't likely do permanent damage, the guys on offense are more apt to try riskier moves.  This is changing the way that receivers and ball carriers are making moves in plays, which fundamentally is evolving the game.

We're not dealing with anything as serious as concussions in War3 FFAs, but I think it is important to think about how legality directly affects the way that a game is played on the field, from a tactical and strategic mindset.  If we allow people to trade items without any restrictions, that puts a further emphasis on shopping and item stacking and less on levels, which increases the incentive to play more at 50 upkeep and decreases the incentive to play at 80.  That's going to change the way the game is played, undoubtedly.  Sure, some players will still prefer aggression--or even just use aggression as a metagame call because so much hoarding is going on.  But ultimately, it's going to provide a better in-game position to players who are playing more passively.  If being more passive is even slightly better than it was before, people will tend toward it more.

I think that it's good we have passive players and manipulators in this game because it makes things interesting and increases the strategic depth.  In theory, that's the point of item trading--to increase the depth even further.  But honestly, we're talking about something that is inevitably going to become a circle jerk of orb and staff trading where one guy gets left out because he actually decided to do something proactive in the game, and everyone else has waaaaaaaayyyyy better item stacking.  Honestly, even without anyone using pre-game reputations or preteaming at all, someone is going to get left out of the trading--especially if the point of the trade is for 2 people to team up against a big player.  So who is going to want to be the big man on the block, if that's how it works?  It's one thing if you expect to fight a few more battles because you have the hero levels and newly acquired gold mines, but if your hero items are absolutely primordial in comparison to others, you're going to lose the game just because you tomed someone.  Who is going to go to 80 quickly and fight, if that's the case?  Why would you do that, if you could just trade items all day at 50 food instead.

It's fine to have hoarding, manipulation, and teaming, but there still needs to be fighting in these games.  There has to be a reason to go out and beat someone up, just so people actually get killed off.  Otherwise, it's just not going to happen.  Especially at a higher level, where the players all know well enough to do things for their own best interest...who is honestly going to play aggressively?

[Magadansky]

I voted No and this post sums up why.

[rygorych]

INS: you're waaaaay off and exaggerating man.
I've addressed this before.

#1: In FFA, strongest doesn't always win. Just because someone doesn't have best race or best items doesn't mean they will lose. Kinda like poker with worst hand.
#2: You're blowing things out of proportions. No, there won't be circle jerks of items. This is a strategy of very limited use and very specific situations.


Maga: thanks for constructive input.



Folks, I think we're down to the basic issue here. This new rule, if implemented, would give more ammunition and potential tactics to manipping macro scrubs like me.
Micro pros like on the other hand, who prefer to play the vanilla way they have been playing for about 8 years now, with 250 apm and showing off their skills obviously oppose. Why would they want to learn to deal with a staffing orc or corruption/purge HU? It obviously goes beyond what they learned in 1v1.

Kruppe was right after all, this IS all about me! Mwahaha.

Worpex, any word on this for next season? I'll shut up as soon as mods decide that item trading is illegal and never bring up the issue again :)

[ins]

Folks, I think we're down to the basic issue here. This new rule, if implemented, would give more ammunition and potential tactics to manipping macro scrubs like me.
Micro pros like on the other hand, who prefer to play the vanilla way they have been playing for about 8 years now, with 250 apm and showing off their skills obviously oppose. Why would they want to learn to deal with a staffing orc or corruption/purge HU? It obviously goes beyond what they learned in 1v1.

You're way out of your depth, here.  Just because someone can micromanage units and hit 250+apm spikes does not mean that they are unintelligent, unskilled in any other department, or unwilling to learn new concepts.  That would be like saying athletes are all morons.

I don't think you respect anybody else's opinion, so you're not going to get a lot of support in any discussion, even if you're absolutely right.

[Persuade]

I voted yes, not because I agree with ebo's points but because I believe that if the league continues to add more and more restrictions, eventually we'll end up with a gametype that resembles nothing from the initial vision the admins had when starting this league.  (Although I haven't been here that long, I couldn't possibly know what they intended, but I think it's safe to assume they wanted a gametype with 0 restrictions and where anything is possible, because that is the nature of the ffa mentality.)

I also think PM should be allowed back in.  Despite what people think, each player has their own playstyle, and if someone decides not to use PM, item trading, decide to 2v1 a strong player, or even play an entire game without chat, then more power to them.  But dissallowing a specific tool because it's "not fair" is hardly a valid justification in my eyes.

I'm probably in the very small minority here, but I believe in a non restrictive type ffa where truly anything goes.  It's everyone against everyone, and if someone has to play dirty to win, then so be it.  Some players choose to hoard 30k and outresource their opponents, some players choose to play 1-2 base aggression for strong heroes and win the game that way, some players depend on their micro to win, some players depend on their lying to win, hell some players even choose to appear weak by choosing extremely shitty hero combos to win.  Then we have some really weird people who choose to make games exciting for observers and couldn't care less about winning.

Regardless of how people decide to play the game, the goal of ffa is to win.  How they do it should be up to the player, using any and all tools at their disposal, without the restrictions of a higher power. 

However, since this is Worpex's league, however he decides to run it is fine with me, I am grateful enough to be allowed to play in the league and can't be picky about every tiny little thing.

[rygorych]

I respect opinions that make sense. So far the few that did make sense (yours included) were pretty flimsy and I easily countered them with examples. And as I said earlier, I realize that I'm fighting an uphill battle against my own reputation as a troll, and that's fine.

Argumentation is commonly based on precedents and parallels. I provided a ton of those explaining why item trading is at the core no different than any other form of teaming/temporary alliance and in fact is only a minor tactic comparing to overwhelming power of coordinated attacks or mine sharing.

Several people came to try and argue that item trading is WORSE than any other form of teaming, providing outworldly examples of how everything is going to be ruined... very reminiscent of real world media-induced phobias, by the way, with a lot of guessing and assuming and scaremongering and very little actual facts and logic. Go back and re-read if you don't believe me.

What I pointed out about high micro players is what all of them seem to not want to say. They know this tactic would slightly lessen their chances to win, and improve the chances of the low micro, high manip players. They don't want to admit it, and that's fine. They are part of this league and they make games more fun. At this point I'll be happy if Worpex comes back and states that item feeding is considered illegitimate just like private chat.

I'll also be happy if this rule is given a test run perhaps for a single round. If things are as bad as you scaremongers assume they will be (lol...) then at least we'll know that we tried.

What's to lose, really? We play this game for fun. We made changes for the sake of fun (banning priv chat, new league format, etc.) Some worked some didn't.

This isn't NBA or NFL. This is FFA, the most unfair and irrelevant and fun game in the world.

[rygorych]

I voted yes, not because I agree with ebo's points but because I believe that if the league continues to add more and more restrictions, eventually we'll end up with a gametype that resembles nothing from the initial vision the admins had when starting this league.  (Although I haven't been here that long, I couldn't possibly know what they intended, but I think it's safe to assume they wanted a gametype with 0 restrictions and where anything is possible, because that is the nature of the ffa mentality.)

I also think PM should be allowed back in.  Despite what people think, each player has their own playstyle, and if someone decides not to use PM, item trading, decide to 2v1 a strong player, or even play an entire game without chat, then more power to them.  But dissallowing a specific tool because it's "not fair" is hardly a valid justification in my eyes.

I'm probably in the very small minority here, but I believe in a non restrictive type ffa where truly anything goes.  It's everyone against everyone, and if someone has to play dirty to win, then so be it.  Some players choose to hoard 30k and outresource their opponents, some players choose to play 1-2 base aggression for strong heroes and win the game that way, some players depend on their micro to win, some players depend on their lying to win, hell some players even choose to appear weak by choosing extremely shitty hero combos to win.  Then we have some really weird people who choose to make games exciting for observers and couldn't care less about winning.

Regardless of how people decide to play the game, the goal of ffa is to win.  How they do it should be up to the player, using any and all tools at their disposal, without the restrictions of a higher power. 

However, since this is Worpex's league, however he decides to run it is fine with me, I am grateful enough to be allowed to play in the league and can't be picky about every tiny little thing.

Thanks for the post and vote Persuade. I'm all for allowing different playstyles too though PM was getting a little overwhelming. It wasn't adding fun to the games. I was probably biggest user of PM and I still voted in favor of banning it - by the way this is a pretty good indicator of my neutrality when it comes to this league.

[FML|WorpeX]

Can you please stop double posting Ebo? Just edit your other post ffs. lol

[rygorych]

Can you please stop double posting Ebo? Just edit your other post ffs. lol

But.. Super Blade Master...

[FML|Renaud]

Consider this situation

P1 has 5k ~70food, no wisp and is food block (and this happens ALOT)
P2 is broke ~70food, but is scared to leave his main because he doesn't have a TP
P3 is alive and well (and he has some great base race ability, like chims or mass tp, or w/e)

P1 gives a TP to P2, allowing P2 to help him fight against P3

Is this some evil bullshit that should be considered cheating?
I think this makes perfect sense.

[Ugri2]

not the same

He wanted upfront to trade item race related.

Giving an item according to circumstances end game would be fine for me, in the situation you mentionned