Item Trading

[Lightweight!]

People have a bad memory, i just say Walking and DarkMessiah... can't understand why you want the game to go this way Ebo since you should know how it feels to be tricked like that (market game).

[rygorych]

People have a bad memory, i just say Walking and DarkMessiah... can't understand why you want the game to go this way Ebo since you should know how it feels to be tricked like that (market game).

They preteamed (allegedly... I actually didn't care about the allegations this much, but i did care that Eshan was scum of the earth).

This isn't preteaming. If a situation in game demands teaming, I will team. And if I team by joining armies, by sharing mines, etc (all the big things), why can't I also team in this minor way of trading a few items?

[rygorych]

ebo has the power to delete other people comments???

your idea enhances the possibility of preteaming issue. Most likely people will agree pregame to exchange stuffs, creating a silent alliance, creating dramas and preteaming contestations.

It is a bad idea (as much as giving you moderation power is)

I can't delete comments. Worpex did.

Ugri, you have a valid point, but the thing is: people can do this already.

How is preteaming to trade a few items worse than preteaming to gang up on someone from the start? It's not. It has barely any effect, while preteaming to gang up has a huge effect.

If someone is a cheater and wants to preteam, they have to communicate to their preteaming buddy. They run a risk of being discovered and reported (like Eshan).

And if they are not reported, this league has much bigger issues than item trading.

TLDR: Preteaming is a much bigger issue and isn't dependent on item feeding.

[Wrecktify]

You asperger's nuts really need to learn how to express yourself in under 50,000 words.

I dont think a rule is needed on it beyond the current one that gives complete flexibility to the admins.  Anyone dumb enough to trade items deserves to lose.  Id love an orb of corruption but would never actually trade a staff.  Saving > killing.  Lul.

[rygorych]

Btw, If there is a clear "you can't drop items from other players to pickup, regardless of circumstance", I'll be cool with that too. At least then I(and others who'd want to try this tactic) won't be feeling like we're missing out.

[ATiBright]

I'm voting no.  Sure it would spice up games a bit, but that's not necessary and I dont want someone teaming me because the strongest player in the game gave them an orb or a staff to not use their brain.  Basically the rule would be allowing bribes it's bad enough when weaker players get teamed out of stupidity, its even worse if weaker players get teamed for a bribe.

Sorry Ebo but I can't agree with you on this one.

[rygorych]

I dont think a rule is needed on it beyond the current one that gives complete flexibility to the admins.  Anyone dumb enough to trade items deserves to lose.  Id love an orb of corruption but would never actually trade a staff.  Saving > killing.  Lul.

Wreck, the problem with the current rule is that people understand it differently. As a result, there is a huge amount of drama every time something like that happens. Just a few weeks ago F10 was crying at PBM and LW for trading units. Before that Kruppe got fed on Gold Rush. Before that, Duck gave YZ's BM a MOD.

My point is, making it this rule more clear would make more people understand how it works and thus actually use this as part of their strategy, and thus make games more fun.

And isn't making games more fun while staying within WC3's rules is the point? The reason PM was disallowed, was because many felt like it was making games less fun. There were some very rational arguments about it. So far, I have yet to hear a single rational argument against item trading though.

[rygorych]

I'm voting no.  Sure it would spice up games a bit, but that's not necessary and I dont want someone teaming me because the strongest player in the game gave them an orb or a staff to not use their brain.  Basically the rule would be allowing bribes it's bad enough when weaker players get teamed out of stupidity, its even worse if weaker players get teamed for a bribe.

Sorry Ebo but I can't agree with you on this one.

Not sure I understand.

As you say yourself, it's bad enough when weaker players get teamed. Item trading doesn't change this. If a strong player manips weak ones to fight, too damn bad. This is how FFA ALWAYS had been, item trading has nothing to do with it.

How is your example any different from, say:
Player A (strongest with 10/10/10 and 40k banked) telling player B: "yo i'm weak, we need to team player C... here, take this gold mine that has 5k in it, then let's team him."
Player C (weakest with 5/5/5 and 1k): "wtf guys... you srs?"

This happens ALL THE TIME. Item trading has nothing to do with it. It would make it more interesting though with potential for some cool scenarios. Eg. same players:
Player A: "Yo i'm weak, let's team C"
Player B: "Ok fine but give me half of all your heroes' items first"
Player C: "wtf guys.."
Player A: "Ok, ok fine" (gives items)
Player B: "thanks! Tricked you, come on C let's team him, he has 10/10/10 and mined 50k at no upkeep"
Player C: "woot!"


To everyone arguing against the idea, can you provide very specific examples where allowed item trades would be detrimental to the game?

[FML|WorpeX]

Ebo does not have moderation power, I have no idea where you got that idea from. I specifically stated in my post that I was the one to have deleted those comments. To lightweight, the comment I deleted was not an idea, it was flame towards ebo and I deleted ebo's response as well.

From what I see, most people are against the idea because they wouldn't ever do, not because its necessarily detrimental to the game. I don't know if we should make a rule to prohibit doing it or not, as it seems no one would do it anyway.

[Redkeekee]

I don't really have a strong opinion.  Everyone's points are valid to an extent.  I don't think item trading is feeding... and I don't have a strong opinion on if it should be allowed or not. 
However, while I don't mind players using manip to win, I do personally detest the style of manip that involves telling blatant lies constantly through the entire game, trying to confuse people into making bad decisions.  I think it is in poor taste and underhanded, BUT it is a part of the game format, and a perfectly valid way of winning.  Its distracting having to type every 10 seconds to defend yourself against a complete lie because if you don't you risk the other player(s) actually believing it, and it gets exhausting.  Making a manipulative statement using truths to cleverly mislead people is a much more subtle and, in my opinion, effective way of manipping.

In short: I find doing some things are distasteful and frustrating, but not illegal.

[rygorych]

Worpex, I think many people are against the idea but they hate having to change their tactics. They hate imagining that they might have to deal with corruption orb HU, or staff Orc or double race UD. They are used to playing the vanilla way and they like it, and they don't want to change. That's perfectly valid and I think it'd be silly to disrespect what someone likes or doesn't like.

That said, if a the rule is left as is, I would assume that few people who do want to use this as a tactic, should be able to use it and not suffer from accusations after they do it.

But THAT SAID, honestly, I'm all for having a healthy league. If this rule makes people quit (IMO drama queens, but whatever!), then I'd just go for prohibiting it.

We're too small of a community, we can't really afford to fight or break down into factions, especially over small crap like this.

P.S. redkee thanks for a good comment, I can totally relate to this, though it's the opposite for me, as you know :) I consider high micro underhanded and cheap, and top macro (manip, scouting, timing) to be the paramount skill :)

[Redkeekee]

P.S. redkee thanks for a good comment, I can totally relate to this, though it's the opposite for me, as you know :) I consider high micro underhanded and cheap, and top macro (manip, scouting, timing) to be the paramount skill :)

Personally I think it's best to be well-rounded.  Relying on one skill too much gives people ammo against you, i.e. people flame maga for being a micro-monkey and flame you for being a dirty liar.  I'm happy to agree to disagree though, differences make things more interesting.  Just be warned, I have devised a clever counterattack to your manip tomorrow ^_^.

[rygorych]

P.S. redkee thanks for a good comment, I can totally relate to this, though it's the opposite for me, as you know :) I consider high micro underhanded and cheap, and top macro (manip, scouting, timing) to be the paramount skill :)

Personally I think it's best to be well-rounded.  Relying on one skill too much gives people ammo against you, i.e. people flame maga for being a micro-monkey and flame you for being a dirty liar.  I'm happy to agree to disagree though, differences make things more interesting. 

I think so too. The best kind of player would know when to use insane micro and when to pretend like he's a noob. The best kind of player would know when to manip and when to play like Dase. Unfortunately most of us get used to one style of playing.

Just be warned, I have devised a clever counterattack to your manip tomorrow ^_^.

Just be warned, I have devised a cleverer counterattack to your clever counterattack to my manip tomorrow ^_^.

(i'm playing Dase-style... shhh, don't tell anyone!) /trollface

[Redkeekee]

You don't know what my counter-attack is though, so you'll have to devise one on the spot!  Hehe.

[rygorych]

You don't know what my counter-attack is though, so you'll have to devise one on the spot!  Hehe.

Actually it doesn't matter because Dase style = no manip at all. Owned!

Unless of course... Dase style of no manip = actually a different kind of manip... and you already have a counterattack for it...

OK, I'm scared now... Can't you stop watching me?