Item Trading

[FML|WorpeX]

We had a discussion about this in another thread and I would like input from other people. At the moment, item sharing is not considered feeding since both players benefit. Here are the arguments from ebo:

I'd just love to have this as an open option for future games (perhaps starting next season). I think the implications of this are huge: imagine orc trading their tiny hall for a few staffs from NE: NE gets lusted/doctored/linked chims, Orc gets hero saves, other 2 players get PISSED THE HELL OFF, mass teaming/chaos starts. I think this would be an awesome fresh change to acknowledge and encourage (barring outright suicide feeding, which would be up to mods to identify and punish).

This makes for AWESOME games. See last season's semi where I got DK Lich MK combo. See this season's R4 game where Ugri won by using UD + HU Steam Tanks. I'm sure there are a few other games I'm forgetting, but they were all awesome.

Heres an argument against it from Kruppe:

In any strategic game, there are boundaries. You imagine any shop except UD for an undead player? You imagine other races' heroes added to your army when given the right gifts?

Anyway, this question of Ebo has a destination.

It is to weaken you, all sworn players to this league, and FML itself.

In my opinion, forbid any of this crap.

It is not good for the league.

and just to clarify, here is what I perceive as the difference between feeding and trading:

Don't think we need a vote for this, in my eyes, this isn't Feeding - its Trading. Completely different thing. Feeding is when one person gets everything, trading is when two people benefit. I don't know at this moment if it should be allowed, but for the moment, there is no rules against it nor is there any reason to say there should be. This is the item equivalent of begging for ones life in exchange for an alliance. Mutually beneficial trade.

This is a brand new topic at the moment with no rules or ideas set forth about this. Speak now if you'd like to see this banned or would like to see it become more common place! Let us know your opinions!

[Lightweight!]

Trading is the same shit as feeding, it throws the whole creeping people did at start into trash. Its bullshit, you play with the items you buy/find at start. Trading is fraud for the 3rd guy who cant do anything against it and has to let the lame happen.

There already is a whole thread about "help ebo finding ways to cheat himself into finals". Once he was on the run he used Kruppe as victim for his evil shit plans. If we allow feeding this way its deception and i will be out of the league. Ebo should try to win with skill and not with this dirty hanky-panky shit.

[rygorych]

Trading is the same shit as feeding, it throws the whole creeping people did at start into trash. Its bullshit, you play with the items you buy/find at start. Trading is fraud for the 3rd guy who cant do anything against it and has to let the lame happen.

There already is a whole thread about "help ebo finding ways to cheat himself into finals". Once he was on the run he used Kruppe as victim for his evil shit plans. If we allow feeding this way its deception and i will be out of the league. Ebo should try to win with skill and not with this dirty hanky-panky shit.

LW, explain to me how item trading is different from any type of teaming?

Case 1: I'm Ud, teaming with an Orc, I ask him for a peasant and promise not to kill him, he gives me a peon, I build up Orc, get DK Lich TC, lusted frosties and mass towers mass bats. Obs are going "omfg awesome". Anyone feel like crying Foul in this case?

Case 2: I and player X are sandwiched, we have 1 mines between us. I offer X peace and to share 20 k gold in the mind between us.  I mine 10k, he mines 10, to be fair. This is feeding too?

Case 3: I and player X are both weak with low heroes. Player Z is soon going to kill us both. I ask player X to feed me Archmage water elementals so I get lvl 6 FS and can EQ harass Z. In return I feed X a few wolves so he can get lvl 6 Alchem and harass player Z.

How is item trading any different?

TEAMING is essential in FFA. If it wasn't we'd just play 1v1+1v1 like morons.
Item trading is only another form of teaming.
And how about, I ask player X to let me mine out 10k, and in return give him Orb of Corruption? Problem with this too? How does this ruin the game type, tell me LW. I really want to hear this.

It only makes games more fun and adds a strategic angle and allows for more different combinations of heroes and items.

The only reason you're even arguing is because you hate me for some irrational reason (like, you think I'm better than you, probably).


I get the "purist" opposition to these sorts of strategies, but you are missing the most important points:

FFA is not a fair gametype. This gametype is inherently unfair. Best player doesn't always win. Sometimes worst player wins, sometimes luckiest player wins. Only thing you can do is scout like crazy to figure out who's currently strongest, and team them.

Oh and LW, nice b/s accusations after I defend you time and time again.

"Once he was on the run he used Kruppe as victim for his evil shit plans. If we allow feeding this way its deception

What the... fuck? Bro, you on drugs? Or just trolling.


Lastly:

Ebo should try to win with skill and not with this dirty hanky-panky shit

Honestly? Really? You're one of the worst most blatant manippers out there, and you tell me this? GTFO and go play 1v1 if you want your "skill", son.

Mods: feel free to delete this shit, but delete LW's garbage too. He starts with b/s accusations out of nowhere, when all Worpex asked for was some neutral/rational discussion.

[Wrecktify]

This thread is stupid, as is Worpex for creating it.

              

[rygorych]

Trading is the same shit as feeding, it throws the whole creeping people did at start into trash. Its bullshit, you play with the items you buy/find at start. Trading is fraud for the 3rd guy who cant do anything against it and has to let the lame happen.

Since I didn't address this:
1. If players in the game are rational, 2 strongest won't trade. 2 weakest will. Too bad for the 3rd guy, but he's the strongest. If 2 strongest do trade, that's some damn good manip. Not any different from strongest player manipping others into fighting each other.

2. How is this different from 2 people ganging up on 3rd? Want to deal with mass chippo from each side of your base? That's more fair?

FFA isn't fair, in case you haven't figured that by now.

Strongest get teamed. As simple as that.

Lol.

[FML|Renaud]

Voted yes,
if both player gain from it (or wanted to gain) it's fine (imo)
kinda like when two player says "hey want to have a few battle to get better levels?" (happened a lot of times this season, and no one complained)

What is wrong (imo) is infinite feeding (feeding summons, pillaging ancient)

or feeding to hurt someone as opposed to help you win (when you know you can't win and are just trying to screw someone over)

[FML|WorpeX]

Holy hell, whats with all this backlash? Ebo raised a valid question about an action which is not described in the rules. This has nothing to do with manip or anything of that sort and everything to do if it should be allowed or not.

I would like to hear constructive arguments and not slamming ebo just because you think hes trying to cheat his way into winning.

I've removed the offensive comments from this thread, please keep this civilized. Thank you.

Also, I agree with Renaud here.

[rygorych]

Voted yes,
if both player gain from it (or wanted to gain) it's fine (imo)
kinda like when two player says "hey want to have a few battle to get better levels?" (happened a lot of times this season, and no one complained)

What is wrong (imo) is infinite feeding (feeding summons, pillaging ancient)

or feeding to hurt someone as opposed to help you win (when you know you can't win and are just trying to screw someone over)

Absolutely Renaud. All those things you listed are basically "suicide feeding" and should be penalized.

And personally, if someone offered to infinite feed me in 3 way I'd refuse. This feels like a trap to get me too strong, then team me off the map. On the other hand, one off trades which would benefit both players are fine, especially if they need it to have a chance vs 3rd, strongest player.

[rygorych]

Holy hell, whats with all this backlash? Ebo raised a valid question about an action which is not described in the rules. This has nothing to do with manip or anything of that sort and everything to do if it should be allowed or not.

I would like to hear constructive arguments and not slamming ebo just because you think hes trying to cheat his way into winning.

I've removed the offensive comments from this thread, please keep this civilized. Thank you.

Also, I agree with Renaud here.

Thanks Worpex. I am a troll and am known to speak boldly against others, so it's not surprising that few people with thin skin are hating on me, and I'm fine with that - it goes along with how I am, so it's all deserved. But thankfully we have a lot of intelligent and rational  players who can provide some actual discussion.

[darkermirror]

this is very interesting

it is all about balance of power.
ebo's strategy is to have it balanced for as long as possible and give everyone as even chances of winning as possible
I FIND THIS BULLSHIT.
he is trying to revolutionize long four ways. i prefer long 3 ways. long 4 ways seem to suck more.

basically ebo is trying to keep balance for as long as possible which should if everyone does the right decisions end in 4way base race. honestly, i hate those games cos they involve massive amounts of base sitting and chatting (see most of ebos games)

one should take granted that there will be wrong decisions, even minor ones during games. thus balancing power for as long as possible is bad as eventually your strive will end in you having to be teamed and suddenly the item change, shared mine etc being bad for you

i much prefer games in which greed and ego play larger roles

it is ironic cos i am not that type of person however from the last league games i prefer those with wrecktify especially or maga or htrt. they cause awesome fights, close games and not 4 players chatting record amounts to perfectly balance power and find decisions which all benefit them.

so basically i play in this league mostly for the fun. i do play for the win cos this causes most fun :D
i am open to criticism and differing opinions and good arguments

[Ugri2]

Dont want to write a long chapter none will read.

I dont like it, voted no

[rygorych]

Dont want to write a long chapter none will read.

I dont like it, voted no

So how does this help?

ebo's strategy is to have it balanced for as long as possible and give everyone as even chances of winning as possible
I FIND THIS BULLSHIT.
he is trying to revolutionize long four ways. i prefer long 3 ways. long 4 ways seem to suck more.

Fair enough, but
1. 4 ways are less boring than 3 ways. 3 ways = everyone is afraid to hit. 4 ways = everyone hitting everyone. See LW Maga Ghost Rain game as example. The reason many of my games are boring is because I'm not a high micro player. I'm sorry if that's boring to you. This isn't the problem with balancing or item trading though. This is a problem specifically with me as a player.

2. How is this relevant specifically to item trading, I'm not sure I follow? People already team. Maga teams. You team. Htrt teamed. Item trading is only extension of teaming, which gives some very fun options.



Oh and if you like crazy games, item trading will make them more crazy.

 Imagine Maga with orc casters.

Just saying.

[Lightweight!]

So, we do it this way now , someone has another opinion about this thing than admins and my comments get deleted, because you support ebos idea. Go on like that ...

[rygorych]

So, we do it this way now , someone has another opinion about this thing than admins and my comments get deleted, because you support ebos idea. Go on like that ...

You gave no opinion, you started flaming me. The only semi-rational comment you had isn't deleted, and I addressed it as well, see above.

[Ugri2]

ebo has the power to delete other people comments???

your idea enhances the possibility of preteaming issue. Most likely people will agree pregame to exchange stuffs, creating a silent alliance, creating dramas and preteaming contestations.

It is a bad idea (as much as giving you moderation power is)