Races

[Slythe]

that topic had been discussed a lot already in the past, but with recently giving numbers to races for determining which one is the best/worst, letīs do this a bit closer with different categories which matters in ffa.

 

Heros:   pal/mk untouchable in higher lvls, awesome brillianceaura with am,   
                       underrated very variable bloodmage, good mixing , especially 
                       with panda/alch

9/10 pts



Units:     for a fully functional army u need many upgrades, which needs
                        a lot of ressources/time. besides footies and maybe riflemen, every
                        unit avaible is useful. mechanical units. Many lower hp units in the 
                        human army.

8/10 pts
                 
Army-Composition:    there are armies which are useful overall like griff/tank/casters
                                  or mass ground. still they are not as good as 'basic' armies 
                                  from other races imo. Hard to make proper armies vs different 
                                  races, e.g. in a 3-way.

7/10 pts


Attacking/Pushing :          due to fast-expands and a quick goldadvantage, fast build
                                         and varibale rushing ways ( ground/air/siege ) clearly the 
                                         best  race

9/10 pts

Defending/Countering:     Hawks for preventing air hit/run, sorcs for slow, mk with 
                                         bolt combined with still good masonry/ best towers and 
                                         ability to build perfect counterarmies ( limited by opponents
                                         heroes) makes it tough to fight in human-bases, even with
                                         bigger armies, also the best race in this area

10/10 pts

Baserace/Defending against it:   tanks/mortars/gyros (esp. vs untowered bases,
                                                    expands), mass tp flamestrike/blizzard pretty useful
                                                    in the offense, and towers/masonry, ability to build
                                                    nice simcity style with farms and other well fitting 
                                                    buildings for a very functional base.

10/10 pts

Economy:                                 needs at best shredders for a fast full tech. Many
                                                peasants weaken ur fighting-supply.

8/10 pts
                           

Misc:                                       semi useful shop, good staff  though. w/o many mech-
                                               units, in need of many scrolls vs aoe-heroes- >
                                               goblinshop. Expands easy to harras, if not many
                                               towers. only one interrupting hero/unit with the mk
                                               (bolt, bash)

6/10


= 67/80 pts

                                   

[Slythe]

sry for that messy editing, but it was shown  a smooth way when i pressed 'post'.


 


Heroes :

Tc/Sh ftw, enormous speed/attack boost, double disable fits with many other heroes well, becomes even better with stacked bm / high lvl dr. Lack of very good comboes w/o tc/sh, still

10/10 pts

Units :

creeping units like hhs/grunts can be decent in midgame ( grunts) or hhs ( anytime).
Demolishers /raiders only in special cases useful. Tauren = best land unit  Bats = best anti air unit,  Best casters . Kodo drums boosts ur whole army. Great synergies with units /heroes overall.

10/10 pts

Army-composition :

with a basic army, containing casters/wyvvern/few bats/1 tauren u can make a already well fitting army against anything to a perfect counterarmy with the additing of more bats or wyvvern or tauren. Against mass heavy air bats are not so good.

9/10 pts

Attacking/pushing :

Bm/grunts can annoy very early and deal much dmg. HH-builds are best at creeping, orc needs some time to build very dangerous armies for early attacks w/o losing chance of getting more gold, inability of countering properly in the first 20 mins.

7/10 pts

Defending/countering :

With a big, towered base and much gold, u can counter everything very niceley and easily ( tauren > ground, bats > air ). the orctowers doing a lot of damage, but u need a good placement and many of them.
Buildings are going down fast against siege , so orc need a lot of productionbuildings or a good basebuild.

8/10 pts

Baserace/defending against it :

good race in baserace/sieging cuz of mass heal army, great blockers vs towers ( linked, healed heroes/tauren), bats easily kill untowered expands, raiders and demolishers are underrated and underused. Bladestorm/wave good aswell
Defending against a baserace is harder for orc than being offensive, but due to towers /burrows disabling with heroes and stasistraps still decent.

8/10 pts

Economy :

needs a shredder the most , since upgrades needs a lot of lumber. Tiny halls give u the chance of a fast expands later in the game.

7/10 pts

Misc:

Good shop with imba orb ( especially on bm/tc/alch ), speedscroll, early heal/mana for creeping etc. Can protect workers with burrows. Movement/Attacksspeed.

9/10 pts


= 68/80 pts

[Slythe]

feel free to add / correct etc.

 

Heroes:

can chose from many heroes for creating a good hero-combo. This strenght is also the weakness since there is not THE best herocombo, and everyone avaible has its negative sides, which can drastically lower ur win-chances in a ffa with different races.

7/10 pts

units :

cheap unit-upgrades. to make chims feared force u need to add at best roar/potm with aura. units have various skills. fairy fire very good.

9/10 pts

Army-Composition :

Chippo is the bread-and butter army, with more aa or more chims u can fight vs everything. It can get countered easily aswell, which is barely the case in a 3-way.
Kinda slow movementspeed, especially when chims are involved.

9/10 pts

Attacking/pushing:

H-riders, bears, fast chims are not easy to counter early on. Heroes vulnerable early.

8/10 pts

Defending /countering :

Wells are helping a lot. Well placed trees good vs ground. Countering can get tricky due to basebuild / vs ground chims need a lot of time. With a small base u are in danger.

7/10 pts

Baserace/defending against it :

DH-meta /panda bof /Starfall and ofc chims  ( mgs too ) very good to siege bases. defending against tanks /bats is very hard w/o proper bases/heroes and even then tricky.

7/10 pts


Economy :

lumber is usually not problem. quite fast expands. half of base is moveable.

10/10 pts


Misc :

decent shop, ok orb, nice staff ( + wells ). big variety of heroes/unit-combos.
useful workers / hard to harras.

8/10 pts

= 65/80 pts

[Camp_and_Spank]

why have a 10 point system if you never go below 5?

[Slythe]

Note that i made this spontanously and ofc you might have chosen different sections or divide/ combine some of them.
also specific race vs race is not included ( might add it ).

 

Heroes :

Dk/dl/lich on higher lvls is pretty deadly vs heroes and armies ( biggest snyergy ), others well working hero-comboes exist. A real battle-hero / single herokiller is missing, low lvl /midgame heroes are just decent. They need a lot of mana.

9/10 pts

Units :

dispell unit needs 5 food, deals not much dmg w/o devoured mana.
Best aa unit ( garg) need a lot of micro. Many units have skills to regain hp quickly ( useful between battles ). Wyrms need a lot of food, good herokiller though.
Casters need extra micro ( best skills not autocast), that u need to keep other units/heroes alive.

7/10 pts

Army- Composition :

a fiend/wyrm combo is quickly build / cheap in upgrades and very useful against every army ( vs casters can become tricky ). Only really good ground army is wagonmancer ( u need other upgrades than for a fiend/wyrm based one ), it is slow and udīs speed advantage gets denied through it.

9/10 pts

Attacking /pushing :

Once the creeping started u can effectiveley clean the map, gaining good herolvls. U have the chance to push very niceley with fiend based, decently lvl 2 heros army.
W/o towering /adding necropolis on expand u can keep up in gold with orc and sometimes elf.

9/10 pts

Defending/countering :

Defending is very good due to movementspeed advantage/slowtowers / zig + upgrades = tower, especially early/midgame. Building counter-armies is tricky, since wyrms( vs ground , need a lot of time) and gargs (vs air, are just good when having many) are the most common ( predictable ) and thus easily recountered units.

7/10 pts

Baserace/defending against it :

Wyrms are very good vs human towers. DnD can destroy half a base, Wagonmancers are good vs every race , but all those things are very specificly (u are not playing vs hu only, lich needs lvl 6, DnD can get interrupted , once the wagons are down, strat is messed up).
Defending against a sieging is very hard for ud, e.g. vs hu/tanks u need wagons/many slow towers against elf/chims many gargs /scrolls/ good micro.
Also the buildings have low hp/bad armor.
Atleast u only need 1 aco to build a lot of buildings.

6/10 pts

Economy   :

ur wood-workers can also attack, being usefl vs early attacks /late harras. Acos are not bound while creating a building.
U need an extra building for tping to an expo.
U can sell buildings.

7/10 pts

Misc :

Good shop with orb of corruption, always avaible healscrolls.
Movement speed on ud ground. Hit and run, much dmg dealing aoe/ff on heroes.
Expands are expensive( necropolis for tp, towers vs easily harrased acos ).
just 2 ud tavern heroes.

8/10 pts

= 62 /80 pts

[Slythe]

@ camp : easier to decide between 7/10 and 9/10 than from 3 /5 to 4/5 , guess it is more accurate that way, but it was a spontanous thing i did not think too much about it  .

[Slythe]

So final score is :

1.    : 68 pts

2.     : 67 pts

3.     :  65 pts

4.     :  62 pts

U can play successfully ffa with any race, but this head-to-head comparison added some more aspects to the previously made race-orders. Although it is a bit closer- pts-wise, than i thought it would get.

In special situations , the race-advantage over another can burst out more obviously, though.

Aswell as the players ffa-understanding and micro often make the difference between win and loss, although ffa-sense/ micro can become more or less irrelevant in certain situations, depending on race.

[rygorych]

Meh I already gave my take on this

#1 by far: AM MK PAL HU
#2 BM/DR TC SH Orc
#3 Rest Pal-based HU
#4 Rest TC SH based Orcs
#5 Generic UD and Top NE combos
#6 Shitty combos for NE
#7 Shitty combos for Hu, Orc, Ud\


In reality, the difference is not all that high. But over long run, the trend is pretty visible: generic HUs dominate.

[ReFlekKt]

pretty informative I think, I hadn't thought to look at some of the things you pointed out. It's easy to forget how you can use some racial strength or another to your advantage. Nice breakdown, should make for some good discussion if it doesn't go downhill with too much imba-talk! Makes me want to watch f-l-y to remember how he used undead so well in his ladder games, I never saw him use his main race (elf?) back in the old days of FFA

[FML|Renaud]

ebo clearly din't read the whole post!
or he's simply commenting about 12% of the post on purpose!

This doesn't only consider heroes, hes talking about every aspect

[Persuade]

Meh I already gave my take on this

#1 by far: AM MK PAL HU
#2 BM/DR TC SH Orc
#3 Rest Pal-based HU
#4 Rest TC SH based Orcs
#5 Generic UD and Top NE combos
#6 Shitty combos for NE
#7 Shitty combos for Hu, Orc, Ud\


In reality, the difference is not all that high. But over long run, the trend is pretty visible: generic HUs dominate.

Pitlord/Firelord/Pally > any hero + tc/sh?
unless you meant any pal/mk combo > tc sh combo, which I wouldn't agree with either. 

[rygorych]

Well it's approximately the same. A smart Hu needs only Pal to beat pretty much anything except top cheeser orc.

[rygorych]

ebo clearly din't read the whole post!
or he's simply commenting about 12% of the post on purpose!

This doesn't only consider heroes, hes talking about every aspect

Na, my post takes those things into consideration.

Everything besides the heroes is constant and doesn't really change whether you play AM MK PAL or FL BEM Naga. Choosing heroes is what makes the difference between Hu #1 and Hu #2.

[Slythe]

pick 6- 10 game relevant section, where the races differs, give each pts from 0-10 as unbiased as u can be and see the result 

[Seksi]

Nice post.   I generally agree with your scoring and the results are near perfect.

Orc > Human > Elf > Undead

68 > 67 > 65 > 62

Orc and Human are nearly tied for 1st with only the slightest edge towards Orc.  Elf is not too far behind and Undead, while last, is only 6 points behind first place reinforcing the idea that all races can do well in FFA.  This also concludes that Orc and Human are indeed the two strongest races.