Civil discussion of Race power in FFA

[rygorych]

No flaming. Let's avoid the word "cheese", and my apologies for even starting the whole cheese thing.

I want everyone's thoughts on which race ranks where in FFA, depending on the combo.

Now, before I do the rankings, a few disclaimers:
-This is not just about winning a battle. You can win every battle, but lose the war (bonus points to all the ASOIAF nerds who recognize the reference).
-This is about overall chance to win the game assuming EQUAL MICRO/MACRO SKILL, EQUAL POSITIONING AND EQUAL MAP ITEM DROPS.
-You can assume an average map where everyone is in a somewhat fair position .You can assume any map you can consider fair (likely one that favors HU and Orc the least). Please list the map you consider fairest to all races.

So, please rank the following on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being strongest, the following combos. Equal scores imply equal chance to win the average game.

*Note* hero combo order not critical. Assume any order you think is the strongest (e.g. TC first or SH first)

Human
-HU AM MK PAL
-HU Panda MK PAL (wreck combo)
-HU Alch MK PAL (johny combo)
-HU BM MK PAL (w8man combo)
-HU Any other hero((Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) MK PAL
-HU AM BM PAL (q-veta combo)
-HU Panda Alch PAL (htrt combo)
-HU Any other combo without MK (persuade combo)
-HU Any other weird hero combo without PAL

Orc
-OR BM TC SH (yz/dase/most orc combo)
-OR DR TC SH (darkness combo)
-OR FS SH TC (ebo combo)
-OR SH TC Panda (ss combo)
-OR Alch TC SH
-OR PL TC SH
-OR Any other hero (Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) TC SH
-OR Good heroes, but no TC
-OR Good heroes, but no SH
-OR Weird heroes, no TC/SH at all

Night elf
-NE Panda KOTG POTM (blex combo)
-NE DR Panda POTM (eshan combo)
-NE DR Panda Warden (lost combo)
-NE DH KOTG POTM (old school combo)
-NE DH KOTG Panda (darker combo)
-NE Any other combo without PANDA
-NE Any weird hero combo

Undead
-UD DK DL LICH (everyman's combo)
-UD DK LICH DR (duck's combo)
-UD DK DR PL (bobas combo)
-UD DK Panda Lich
-UD DK Cryptlord + Lich or DL (worpex op combo)
-UD non-DK combo
-UD weird hero combo


Let me know if you want other combos added. I will post my rankings in a separate post, please follow the format if you're not sure.

[rygorych]

Fairest map to all:
#1: Twilight. No mana fountains, good wood, good shops, good mine placement, 8 player = least luck. The only problem is shredder which favors ORC, but disfavors HU, which makes it pretty fair to me.
#2: Harvest very similar to twilight except it's 6 player, which makes it inferior in terms of fairness.
#3: Deadlock. Favors UD and NE, disfavors Orc and to lesser extent HU. Low creeps, open spaces, no items, no fountains or shredders, decent wood. Problem with this map: high luck factor. Bad position = very high chance of being screwed.

I base my rankings of hero combos and races on the above map choice.


Average fairness:
Crucible
Gold Rush

Not fair at all:
Savage storm
Marketplace
Silverpine
 

Human
10-HU AM MK PAL
9-HU Panda MK PAL (wreck combo)
7-HU Alch MK PAL (johny combo)
8-HU BM MK PAL (w8man combo)
6-HU Any other hero((Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) MK PAL
7-HU AM BM PAL (q-veta combo)
7-HU Panda Alch PAL (htrt combo)
5-HU Any other combo without MK (persuade combo)
4-HU Any other weird hero combo without PAL

Orc
9-OR BM TC SH (yz/dase/most orc combo)
9-OR DR TC SH (darkness combo)
7-OR FS SH TC (ebo combo)
7-OR SH TC Panda (ss combo)
7-OR Alch TC SH
6-OR PL TC SH
5-OR Any other hero (Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) TC SH
3-OR Good heroes, but no TC
4-OR Good heroes, but no SH
2-OR Weird heroes, no TC/SH at all

Night elf
6-NE Panda KOTG POTM (blex combo)
6-NE DR Panda POTM (eshan combo)
6-NE DR Panda Warden (lost combo)
5-NE DH KOTG POTM (old school combo)
5-NE DH KOTG Panda (darker combo)
4-NE Any other combo without PANDA
3-NE Any weird hero combo

Undead
6-UD DK DL LICH (everyman's combo)
5-UD DK LICH DR (duck's combo)
5-UD DK DR PL (bobas combo)
3-UD DK Panda Lich
2-UD DK Cryptlord + Lich or DL (worpex op combo)
1-UD non-DK combo
1-UD weird hero combo

Based on this, I'd rank the chances to win any given game.

E.g. a race/hero combo with 10 has 2x more chances to win than a race/hero combo with 5.

[Q-veta]

-HU Alch MK PAL (johny combo)

I'd just like to point out that this is also my combo, been using it since 2006. (Technically there were sky_fireice, Turbo.LT and some guy named archemage before me but they're probably dead now so it's all me)

[Wrecktify]

Id more closely associate DH/Panda/Potm with Sta, not eshan, because ehsan is bad.

And cmon Ebro you know TC/Panda/SH is and alwyas will be Emmi's

 

[rygorych]

Id more closely associate DH/Panda/Potm with Sta, not eshan, because ehsan is bad.

And cmon Ebro you know TC/Panda/SH is and alwyas will be Emmi's

 

SS came before emmi! But I guess you're right, it was Emmi's signature combo. 15 wyverns + panda vs mass garg, YE.

Anyways, more ranking please, I'm curious how people feel.

[Wrecktify]

I thought SS was just DR/TC/SH ?_?

[rygorych]

I thought SS was just DR/TC/SH ?_?

Eventually, but originally he was SH first, then TC/Panda.

[FML|Renaud]

When did eshan go DH/Panda/Potm?  He went something like DH/Panda/DR!
I would also agree that DH/Panda/Potm should go too sta, although everyone used that during his time in FFA so...

[FML|Mage]

This is not just about winning a battle. You can win every battle, but lose the war (bonus points to all the ASOIAF nerds who recognize the reference). 

Reference to Rob.

Also you don't think Alch panda dr should get its own combo category    It made Renaud and Red want to team me pretty badly haha.

[FML|Renaud]

Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed

[daselend]

I'm a little confused. Does your evaluation of hero combos account for synergies with typical armies?

Besides that, I'd pretty much agree with your ratings, but I'd rate Lost's elf combo and DK Lich DL at least 7. (And perhaps a few other elf combos)

[rygorych]

I'm a little confused. Does your evaluation of hero combos account for synergies with typical armies?

Besides that, I'd pretty much agree with your ratings, but I'd rate Lost's elf combo and DK Lich DL at least 7. (And perhaps a few other elf combos)

Armies are irrelevant for the sake of the evaluation Dase. You can assume any armies you believe are best in any given average game. Since heroes are constant, and armies are variable, the latter can't really be taken into consideration along with the first. If someone says : "ok guyes, I will not make bats this game" , sure you can believe him, but he can easily lie too. On the other hand, once someone takes FL NAGA Tinker, they are stuck with those heroes forever.

Re: top elf and Ud combos, I'd say they are in the 6-7 range, but assuming everyone is equal skill level (e.g. maga-skilled orc vs maga-skilled ud), I'd go for the lower number. I think with higher skill the imbalance becomes clearer.

[FML|Mage]

Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed

Yeah, but Red wasn't on his last army!

[FML|Renaud]

Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed

Yeah, but Red wasn't on his last army!

you also werent on your last army, you where all liers!  Only I told the truth :(

[FML|Mage]

Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed

Yeah, but Red wasn't on his last army!

you also werent on your last army, you where all liers!  Only I told the truth :(

Irrelevant!