Banning PM Chat

[FML|Renaud]

I think it used to be 16-12, and now its 17-12 so i'm, guessing hes sarcastic and he voted to ban it

However, you could always check the ids contained in the poll db, and check who voted what

[FML|WorpeX]

But thats unethical!

...

lol, he voted no. Crazy guy.

[Rain]

Forget about me, Im just here to confuse you.

[ReFlekKt]

PM chat and regular chat are options for everyone. Also though, I think people overlook the fact that silence and appearances (e.g. base layouts, hero levels/choices, army size/composition) can be just as manipulative and deceptive as blocks of text in reg or PM chat. A lot of the "problem" with chat and preteaming is that it may not, for some, be as entertaining to watch as the strong fighters in the community going on rampages. But for that matter is it not just as boring to watch weak fighters attempt to go on rampages when their true ability is in orchestrating their victories by other means? I for one found Eshan's PM chat in his game with SS and Walking intriguing, because it was effective (and for the record, I'm a big fan of players who rely primarily on their fighting ability to win games). Like most lurkers at ffareplays (or are we so few?), I just like to watch a well-played game, no matter what a player's style is.

I know the great worry is that games will degenerate into vendettas, feuds and 2 vs. 2's , but I think that the best thing that could happen to organized FFA as we know it is to remove the rules against preteaming. Really the only rules should be against cheating and ghosting, and the second one seems easily preventable - I recall watching many solo replays where the hosts used a program that allowed for a delay between what observers were seeing and what was happening in real-time. Anyway, back to preteaming. It should be allowed to run its course in the league. Eventually players will recognize that not all of the consequences of teaming and chat will be to their benefit, in any given game or season (I think it's pretty clear that plenty of FFAers have long memories).

No one would seriously consider a ban on certain hero combos, items, or any mix of these, let alone the curbing of anything that would prevent the community's best fighters from shining in battle. Instead the good fighters have gained reputations that precede them in every game they enter - their abilities are factored into every serious player's game plan. I see no reason to prevent manippers and teamers from freely establishing their own reputations, ones which will become as notorious as those of the fighters, by allowing teaming and chatting of any kind to go unchecked. Let those players who rely on manip and teaming carry their own double-edged swords as the fighters have been allowed to, especially if the alternative is this gray area, open to interpretation, which will do nothing but create additional drama and disputes.

Sorry for the bump and the large reply, but this weekend is the first chance I've had to sit and think about the recent controversies that were M25 and M27. And I think getting rid of any kind of chat or teaming would move FFA in the wrong direction. And then I'd only have TV to watch =/

[FML|Renaud]

(i'm not saying i'm in favor of this, but it is interesting)

Allowing preteaming *would* be cool in some case (especially if we can see all the pregame manip between the 4 player pming each other on the forum).  Also, most player would be unable to trust each other, since unlike bnet preteaming, both player wants to win.  I suppose that most player would probably create a pregame alliance, and not follow it (probably because they are paranoid that the other won't follow it)  The problem, is when you have actual strong trust between players (although that is already a problem, even if there is no preteaming, there are conflicts of interest)

[ReFlekKt]

Yes Renaud that is true - without trying to provoke an argument I'm just going to use Walking and Rabbit as an example, not because I am accusing them of impartiality but because they're a convenient example since they're brothers. But the thing is, they're only going to be in the same game a maximum of two times per regular season (that is just a guess, based on the size of the player pool and the # of games), and everyone can see their preteam coming. But Walking and Rabbit (again, just using them as a convenient example) still require good spawns and a pair of weak opponents to ensure consistent victories during their games together. And then they have 4-5 other games where they're without each other to rely on, probably matched up against people who are unappreciative of their methods of ensuring themselves 1st and 2nd place points - it would arguably then be wise for other players (especially ones they've previously teamed) to make sure that they don't get 1st and 2nd place points in other games - call it an expansion of strategic play that transcends any individual game. Because at the end of the day each player is playing for an accumulation of points.

I really think that allowing everything short of cheating and ghosting (just another form of cheating) would put teaming and chat in their proper perspective and make tier 1 and tier 2 rushes sensible in FFA - would it not become worth it for Dase to rush out Ebo, solo style, when they're close-spawned? It would boost the value of a player's fighting ability and devalue teaming ability - what good is teaming if you're rushed out early? The other players in the game will still benefit more from ignoring it rather than from coming to the rescue - after all there is one less teamer in the game, and more time to creep and expand.

Oh and one more thing. If it's sensible to look beyond the current game you're in and play to the overall accumulation of points, I think it makes feeding a lot more sensible too. I haven't explicitly said it (though it's implied by allowing anything short of cheating), but I think feeding should be a legitimate means of bargaining, as suicide is.

[Kruppe]

Kruppe wants every non-playing poster to be removed from the poll.

Or should Kruppe get all of his friends to vote for ban?

This is too poor for Kruppe's weary eyes.

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

Keep in mind, Kruppe:

1.) Worpex has the ability to see which users voted for which options

2.) The final decision by the admins do not rest solely on this poll.

[Kruppe]

Dear Son of Darkness,

Kruppe will by all means accept the decision Worpex willll make, but I would like to see this vote cleansed of the forum users that do not play FML.

I want a poll of players, not of forum members that registered 1 day ago.

Kruppe willl bow his head, but Kruppe wants to know truth of FFA community' s opinion.

Period.

Furthermore Kruppe wants a stop to PM teaming Admin with an very good hiding maphacker in this league.

[FML|WorpeX]

Last time I checked, all the votes were legitimate. That could have changed, but I'm too lazy to check and as Darkness said, the vote doesn't matter

This thread is made primarily for discussion purposes. It in no way will directly affect league rulings, however, it can influence them.

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

Furthermore Kruppe wants a stop to PM teaming Admin with an very good hiding maphacker in this league.

I couldn't fully understand that sentence, but if you are claiming that someone is maphacking in this league, you'll need to contact Worpex via PM with your proof.

[ReFlekKt]

I know it sounds counter-intuitive that the solution to "too much teaming" in FML is to permit PM and preteaming to go unchecked, but look at my argument rather than my post count to determine whether or not my vote in the poll is worthwhile.

The best fighters are perceived to be much more dangerous than the best teamers, for two related reasons: teamers are not permitted to use all of the weapons at their disposal - preteaming, feeding, manipping and, perhaps in the near future, PM chat. Fighters on the other hand are not impeded in any way: any combination of heroes and units is permitted. Fighters cannot hide or lower the levels of their heroes. Fighters can use whatever style of fighting best suits them, and some of them do it so well that they either have nicknames related to how regularly and intensely they're teamed for it (Maga's curse) or they're required to off-race to be perceived as less of a threat (Dase). It is easy to assume the worst about fighters and how much trouble they're going to be for you when they're fully able to exercise they're capabilities. Not so with teamers. The strength of the teaming style of play in FML, and by extension of teamers themselves, is diluted by the limitations imposed on teaming and feeding - the fighters as a result look much more dangerous than the teamers do, and in fact are much more dangerous, since their style of play is not limited by the rules, while the teamer's style is.

All I'm suggesting is that teamers be allowed to achieve their potential in the game-type. My argument is that when their true strength has been seen, the fighters will look a lot less dangerous, and the way FFAs in FML are played out will be much more diverse than the whittling down of 3 players who must continually stab each other in the back for 2 hours, all because teamers are not currently dangerous enough to make rushing them out a viable or wise option in FFA.

Imagine going into a game with a mix of teamers and fighters, and being forced to assume the worst of all of them in terms of their potential - preteaming, Orc tri-hero, and the threats of some whiner in the late game that he will feed items and heroes to another player if you attack him one more time (which is really just the weak fighter's version of a suicide against you) - if you knew going into the game that each given player was capable of each of those things, would it not change the way you and every other player devised your strategy in each game? And would it not force you to re-evaluate the danger each player in the game poses to your chances of winning at any given stage in the game? I really don't see being forced to undergo another learning curve as such a terrible thing, especially when it has the potential to shake up the way FFA in FML is currently played. I really enjoy watching the games, but I think there is a lot of untapped potential as it stands.

[Kruppe]

Last time I checked, all the votes were legitimate. That could have changed, but I'm too lazy to check and as Darkness said, the vote doesn't matter

This thread is made primarily for discussion purposes. It in no way will directly affect league rulings, however, it can influence them.

Dear Worpex,

of course you are right. Kruppe's intention was to see the clear picture about the opinions of the players. That's all.

Dear Son Of Darkness,

if Kruppe had proof he would have done this. There are players hiding too good, but one can see it in the way they build their games. That was the reason for my sentence - a maphacker with PM is nearly unstoppable for no-one is able to know where his information is from when he uses it in private chat. Even worse if an honorable player - Admin for example - falls for this.

Dear Reflekkt,

this thread is about private messaging. Nobody talks about teaming or to forbid it.

Kruppe

[ReFlekKt]

Dear Kruppe,

The argument is relevant since it implicitly argues for the continued use of PM in the league. Banning PM will just further make teamers appear weaker and fighters appear stronger, for the reasons I have already given.

Best,

ReFlekKt

As an aside: In theory banning PM is an advantage for fighters since they will no longer be required to scout coordinated attacks, which ironically amounts to something like a legal maphack for fighters when it is needed the most (when two or more players are coordinating to hit him at the same time). Again, though, I've already explained why I think banning PM will end up having the opposite effect for which it is intended.

[rygorych]

Ban eet. The games will be longer due to everyone counter manipping in all-chat, but that's the price to pay. As people get smarter about who to team against, it should balance out, and games should be shorter/more dynamic again.

Right now, 90% participants in this league suck ass at scouting, which is why they are so bad at teaming correctly. Hopefully without priv chat there will be more insentive to learn to effing scout.