Dropping The Banhammer.

[Walking.TrL]

Well I din't see the game, so I can't comment, BUT

Walking: Hah.  Yes we are going to peace from the start and hoard and get 1 or 2 and team out the moron ebo and the soloist star. I like you Eshan.

and it's exactly what happened

But its not, because I hit Eshan and tried to get him teamed out of the game. 

I just want you guys to know what you are penalizing for, because it has nothing to do with in game actions. 

[Peregrine]

We aren't replaying this game? What the fuck?

As all admins admitted, the only case of REAL preteaming that was acknowledged, in season 4, you replayed the game.

Here we did NOT preteam. 80 minutes of normal gameplay happened before we decided to team up BECAUSE HE HIT WALKING AND HE HAD TRIRACE, TOWERS, BEST MICRO.

So we teamed him out.

We did not "peace from start" despite the quote renaud just posted.

So now you are removing our points? Is it because you dont want it to seem like you didnt take any action, that you just let us go free EVEN THOUGH WE DIDNT PRETEAM?

I understand not getting my 25 points. I dont like it but okay. But now we cant rematch?

First of all that ruins chances for the playoffs for me and for walking. Second of all - THE REASON I DIDNT REPORT WALKING AS A PRETEAMER IS BECAUSE it was OBVIOUS he was joking. And I wanted to catch them actually doing it before punishing them.

Because thats how punishment works. You guys seem content with punishing us even though there was no preteaming.

The whole problem with preteaming is that it gives two players an unfair advantage. Which game did that happen in?

Q/Renaud game - TEAM ALL GAME DESPITE SPAWNS but no proof of 'pre-game messaging. No penalty even though two players had unfair advantage from start throughout the WHOLE game.

This game - yes pregame messaging (that I told you guys about and why I was doing it), but no, we did NOT TEAM AT ALL until the very end for real in game reasons. No unfair advantage, but yes penalty?

That defies logic and fairness.

so why is there no rematch? I should get my points but if you still think the game is in question, rematch it. Dont just remove our points like some dictators

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

So now you are removing our points

Some kind of punishment was needed for the forum PMs from you (and walking agreeing to it) and this seemed like the most fair way to go. Yes yes yes, you claim it was to help the league, Walking claimed he was joking when he accepted it. Whether that is true or not, it still happened, it's against the rules, and we have actioned both of you accordingly.

[Peregrine]

Rematching the game IS a punishment since I won...

and it clears the game from all this preteaming nonsense

and it happens to be the RIGHT thing to do, based on fairness AND based on FML precedent.

Removing our points (LOL and spotting starshaped an extra point hahaha) just means you are avoiding the proper punishment and settling on one that makes you look better as admins.

But the best admins are the ones who act fairly, not quickly without fairness/logic.

Explain why rematching is a worse option, and less fair option, than abritrarily removing our points?

If you say we need 'some punishment for those PMs (which were not real preteaming messages as you knew)', why not choose the fair punishment (rematch) over the unfair one (point removal)?

Also the goal is a fair league, right? So removing our points gives us an unfair position vs the other players in this league. Rematch puts everyone exactly where they should be. Removing points alters the league standings. Obviously as a playre you and renaud want us to have less points, but as admins you should choose the fair choice

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

Removing our points (LOL and spotting starshaped an extra point hahaha) just means you are avoiding the proper punishment and settling on one that makes you look better as admins.

The original punishment was you two being banned, so I'm not sure how you can say that this one we did is not proper. You sent forum PMs asking for preteam. Walking agreed to it. That's preteam, it's against our rules.

But the best admins are the ones who act fairly, not quickly without fairness/logic.

I agree that the original punishment we acted too hastily and I mostly stood out of the way during the decision process that went on, but as far as this one goes, it's the best choice (given the circumstances).

Explain why rematching is a worse option, and less fair option, than abritrarily removing our points?

It's not fair. But neither was the action that you took, nor the action that Walking took (on our forums). It's called punishment, AKA deterring others from doing similar actions in the future, there's no "fairness" about it. You're right that it's about sending a message, that's part of what a punishment is.

[Peregrine]

Wrong punishment is not about sending a message. Thats what unfair leaders do with exaggerated punishments

If you think the game was unfairly played by the player who won, the punishment should be a rematch. Fixes the game, and removes his victory.

The message you want to send has clearly been sent. Punishments are reprisal for crimes. Whereas a change in rules or in social norms are what prevent future crimes. The no-PM rule being discussed, which normally I would oppose (I joined Fury because Lone said no-PM), I would be down for. And that would eliminate these problems.

So using us to 'set an example' is indeed unfair. The punishment should fit the crime, and you know that 'you sent PM. walking agreed. you teamed' is the most inaccurate, oversimplified, version of what happened that you could possibly take.

The truth, which you know, is much different. I tried to help the league, failed, played a normal game, teamed with a player verse a threat after 80 minutes, and won.

Punish me fairly for causing all this drama or putting the game in question, but dont punish me unfairly in a way that ruins my chances to win (because thats what you are really doing with this punishment, i cannot make playoffs). Points in a swiss system should reflect skill and success, once you alter that it is unfair.

[Peregrine]

Definition of punishment, WiKi:  "an authorized imposition of deprivations—of freedom or privacy or other goods to which the person otherwise has a right, or the imposition of special burdens—because the person has been found guilty of some criminal violation, typically (though not invariably) involving harm to the innocent."

Have we been found guilty of a crime (preteaming)? By admin posts themselves, no. Admins admit we did not preteam. Have we hurt the innocent (the league)? uhhh no. in fact this whole drama has only helped ensure people will likely not preteam. Or even PM, if the new rule is put in place.

So we are being punished for those messages that we sent. By your own quote, thats what you are punishing us for.

However never was the SENDING of messages a crime in our league. It was the PRETEAMING ITSELF in a game that was considered cheating.

on top of this, the intentions of my messages, which I revealed to you before the game, should make it 100% obvious that the messages themselves were not preteaming plans.

So no crime was committed, and the messages you are punishing me were not criminally intended.

Not to make a ridiculous comparison, but honestly this is like in The Dark Knight when they are trying to punish Batman for helping the damn city

[hejpådigStarshaped]

we decided to team up BECAUSE HE HIT WALKING AND HE HAD TRIRACE, TOWERS, BEST MICRO.



We did not "peace from start" despite the quote renaud just posted.

You both need to stop bending the truth so damn much. Pre-teaming from the start of a saved game is just as bad as pre-teaming from the start of a game imo. I don't agree with how the results turned out, but I don't think there should be a re-game either. Just be glad you aren't banned imo.

[Wrecktify]

Definition of punishment, WiKi:  "an authorized imposition of deprivations—of freedom or privacy or other goods to which the person otherwise has a right, or the imposition of special burdens—because the person has been found guilty of some criminal violation, typically (though not invariably) involving harm to the innocent."

Have we been found guilty of a crime (preteaming)? By admin posts themselves, no. Admins admit we did not preteam. Have we hurt the innocent (the league)? uhhh no. in fact this whole drama has only helped ensure people will likely not preteam. Or even PM, if the new rule is put in place.

So we are being punished for those messages that we sent. By your own quote, thats what you are punishing us for.

However never was the SENDING of messages a crime in our league. It was the PRETEAMING ITSELF in a game that was considered cheating.

on top of this, the intentions of my messages, which I revealed to you before the game, should make it 100% obvious that the messages themselves were not preteaming plans.

So no crime was committed, and the messages you are punishing me were not criminally intended.

Not to make a ridiculous comparison, but honestly this is like in The Dark Knight when they are trying to punish Batman for helping the damn city

You fucking faggot shut the fuck up youre lucky youre not banned for being such a goddamn idiot.  I didn't see preteam but anyone as stupid as you are, both in pregame idiocy and the continued bitching post-unban is unbelievable.  Youre lucky all these admins are goddamn softies cause if I was still admining this league id reban you for being such an ungrateful nigger.

[Peregrine]

calm down wreck good thing you arent an admin anymore, lettin emotions get to you

so you didnt see preteam, but i should not bitch if im unfairly banned? good one. the whole point here is fairness/logic, not "fuck u nigger you should be banned for being a dumbass"

and SS we didnt team from start of rehost, a few minutes into it is when we decided. You said lets fight in the middle. I thought that was fucking retarded. Once you hit walking he said "ok he hit my expo, lets team him". And thus we teamed you. Maybe you should have been more patient. But hey they gave you an extra point for sucking in a 3way, lucky you.

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

punishment is not about sending a message. Thats what unfair leaders do with exaggerated punishments

An exaggerated punishment is banning you from the league, and that was revoked. Sorry but I disagree about the nature of the punishment.

Fact - You sent PM to all 3 players requesting preteam

Fact - Walking agreed to it

Fact - It resulted in a shitload of drama.

It doesn't matter what your intentions were, it's what you did, and what the results were. I personally don't think you wanted to preteam, but I can't prove it 100% either way, so I can't let my feelings get in the way of this. If there is no punishment, then others may feel inclined to do something similar in the future in regards to breaking our rules, and then claim that it was for the good of the league, or whatever. You're right, there is no specific rule that says private messaging others and offering preteam is not allowed. But it's still bypassing the spirit of the rules to encourage unfair advantage pre-game. What you did was reckless and irresponsible, honestly all you had to do was consult the admins before you undertook this "project" of yours. We would've told you not to do it, more than likely, but that doesn't mean you can take things into your own hands and not accept consequences for your actions.

By the way, I don't speak for the entire admin staff, although considering that Worpex + Reno wanted to keep you + Walking banned, I think you should be happy with the result.

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

P.S. please no pointless insults towards eachother, I've deleted the offending comments, let's keep this discussion civil

[Peregrine]

Darkness all your facts are indeed facts

You just fail to mention all the important facts in between. The ones that actually show what really happened

But at this point I know, and you know, what really happened. We both know I did not preteam. There was NO crime. Nor were my private messages an intention to preteam. So there was no crime there either. In fact, if I had used any other messaging place besides this website, and still sent yuo that message telling you what I was doing and the game had gone the same way, what would you say?

The results speak for themselves -there was no preteam, I sent you the damn message.

You aren't punishing me, you are using me as a whipping boy to make sure that other people dont preteam or send messages about preteaming. But that has already been accomplished - 1. because of all this drama, and 2. because everyone knows u can read the damn messages now lol.

You keep telling me to be happy because I'm not banned. The ban was wrong, I'm happy it didn't happen, but it never should have in the first place. This punishment is wrong as well. Its almost as bad as the ban because it effectively ruins my chance at winning this league. So you're just letting me play two meaningless FML matches after this, because even if i win BOTH - I can't win.

Just let us replay the fucking match, its fair, it causes no pain to anyone else, it still removes my winning points, AND It gives ebo and SS a chance to get 25 points. Or suicide me.

Choose the fair choice. Renaud hates me so I can't count on him to be fair in this case, but you and Worpex I hope can be.

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

You aren't punishing me

Yes we are, for what you did.

Nor were my private messages an intention to preteam

Again, it doesn't matter what my personal feelings are, it's what you did, the manner you went about doing it, and the results of it.

there was no preteam

I can not comment one way or the other on this, that is why I have avoided talking about it directly, since the replay was a saved game. I'm not focusing on that aspect of it at all, I'm focusing on the forum PMs you sent. My opinion means nothing, I wasn't there.

So you're just letting me play two meaningless FML matches after this, because even if i win BOTH - I can't win.

If you win both you'll be at 90 points, pretty certain that is semis

ust let us replay the fucking match, its fair

Fair to who exactly? All it does is possibly allow Ebo or Starshaped to be 1st instead, so we are rewarding them for something that you + Walking did before the game, which (as you claim) had 0 impact on the game itself? Makes no sense.

[Peregrine]

you didnt address the key point:

I did not BREAK ANY RULES

the spirit of the rules, what? There are rules. http://ffamasters.com/league/index.php?page=1

theres the rule book. none were broken. rematching the game that I won is still a punishment, but its a much more appropriate one then just stripping two players of their points AND adding a point to another player for no reason.

Not only that, but in the one case FML has had of real preteam being caught, S4, nobody was banned or lost their points. The game was rematched.

Here we didnt even preteam and yet were banned, lost our points, no rematch.