NE vs Orc 1v1

[Dovekie]

Nice post, mr Dovekie, thank you. Yes, I use cycllone a lot. I'm a kinda sloppy player with ~100 apm, or less. All I do in battles is spam cyclone, try to cast hero spells by cooldown and move my wounded heros back a bit, or staff them out.

Push with chims and cyclone. OK I will as soon as I meet another orc 1v1.

Speaking of items, ye, I'm super greedy here, I buy every aura I can get my hands on, even the worse ones. My philosophy is that my units are going to be totally imba with every aura, this is especially important in mirror. But then my hero has 600hp. I will work on it.
No boots? I usually get a pair for every hero. Will try to play w/o the boots, but it feels wierd! As for the orbs... I used to get them on every hero. But then I thought to myself, is it worth it. Look. The keeper is going to cast his Tranquiity for 30sec (was it?), so he's not shooting half the time. I usually stack him with 4 hp items, a staff, and sometimes an AMS. Panda, I thought it's better to give him the orb past lvl 7, where he can crit (however if my main rival is hu, I usually skip haze and skill brawler to fight tank/copters, I find haze less usefull vs hu, what do you guys think about it?). The DH should definitely get the orb...
I do realize that the orb of venom adds a lot of damage, but then my usual heros (my most usual combo is tinker/panda/keeper), none of them are about damage, save for panda maybe?

As for DR, I usually skill silence and lifedrain (if I get her 3rd) or retrain to lifedrain at lvl5, if I pick her 1st. I cast silence and drain life, the cast silence again, etc. She's much more lively this way, I find, again, what do you guys think about it? But my main point here, she's not shooting again, so the orb on her, is it worth it?

I would get boots on Panda if no movement auras, and I would keep @ most 2-3 auras (only movement / dmg auras—you do not need brilliance).  Anything past that I think is pushing it, as you are missing out on Periapts / Scrolls. Obviously there are some insane items that take exception (ring +5, silence stick if you have the micro, spell shield, blink, crown, valor on DH, etc, use your head).


The Orbs are a very, very early game investment that pays off immediately. Try and get 2 shops in your main so you can have 3 Orbs as early as possible. The power level of this is so insane, and I don't see anybody else doing it. You can honestly defend anything at this point in the game with just wells and heroes, not to mention the obvious aggresive possibilities. You REALLY hurt enemies because the poison stacks to 27 pure dps x6 seconds every auto attack. At this early point in the game, it pushes you over the edge in power. Definitely keep it on the Kotg, as it is him that almost always gets off the first auto attack. Tranquility is more of an inbetween-battle spell then something you use in a 100 food fight. But if they are going to stay and fight you under tranq, then its a win either way. And anyways, this is something you get from level 1—5 levels before tranquility.

I wouldn't skip haze versus any race. The panda has too low damage and attack speed to make realistic use of drunken brawler dps. It is mathematically a 30% dps increase on him @ level 3 drunken brawler, on a hero with bad dps. Bad dps + 30% more = bad dps still.




Also, you are misunderstanding orb completely. You are on the line of thought that the more auto attack damage a hero does, the better Orb is on that hero. This is actually the opposite of what the Orb does. It gives a flat 9dps to any hero. So you give one to a demon hunter, and it increases him from like 60dps to 69dps (actually a little more because of +6). You give it to a kotg who has 22dps, and he goes to 31dps. A much larger percentage increase. It might sound insignificant, but when used on all 3 heroes, it is very noticeable and incredibly powerful, especially in the first 35 minutes of a game.

I think life drain is fine, but I would rather use Orb or skeletons personally.

[Seksi]

Dovekie has a unique take on Elf and loves his Orbs of Poison.  I have a different approach but it's worth trying 3x orbs some more as he makes good points.

Just one more throw in as far as items for Elf: Anti Magic Potion.   I love AMS as much as Dovekie loves Orbs.   You should always have an AMS pot on Panda and usually have one on Kotg or Potm.   

You should also always have a Boots of Speed on Panda and DH. I like Boots too, so will often have one of the DR.  Now with the new patch all heroes have increased movement speed so Boots may or may not be as necessary on heroes like DR (still always on Panda).  Boots are great because your heroes get to the spot faster to use their spells.  Boots on DR is nice because you can land the silence that much quicker. 

I would stack my heroes in an average game with something like this:

Dark Ranger - TP / +150 HP / +150 HP / Scroll / Boots / Staff
Panda - AMS / +150 HP / +150 HP / Pendant of Energy or Mana Pot / Boots / Staff
Kotg - TP / +150 HP / +150 HP / AMS / Scroll / Staff

AMS Pots are especially great against Undead, but even against Human they are good too.  You can pop the AMS pot at the beginning of the battle and ensure you can use your heroes without them becoming disabled or in danger.

Night Elf has a lot of versatility in the styles that you can play.     

[WES]

So, yesterday I did the chim-talon push on orc, and it was so cool.
Just my two thoughts on it: I think I still should make 1-2 hippos to make short work off their burning wyverns, as I can't bof/haze/entangle/cyclone/staff AND focus red hep wyvs with my heros, 2much for me. I'm not, like, bad, just sloppy.

Then, no brilliance aura for this strat? Yesterday that game I got dropped 2 brilliance pipes, sold one and I thought I'm really good, this is the best aura to go with talons, imo? Were you speaking in general (that one doesn't need the mana pipe in every mu) or about vs orc in particular? I also like the lifesteal aura in hippo or hippo-garg battles. But I'm leaning towards buying TC/DK/kodo auras only as for now.

Then, of orbs. Yes, Im always making 2 shops at t2 to get my staves and later — orbs faster. I really used to play with 3x-orb, but once again, this is because someone one the Internet told me so. So, I'm thinking about it myself now. One thing I noticed, when harassing with the tinker, is how much more fast workers go down if you have the orb: you just hit one, then another one, then the 3rd one, and then back to the 1st one, which is already less than 50%hp... Without the orb it's funnily tedious. And chasing fleeing units too, if I have the orb, it's much more easy...But then, it's 1 more slot of the inventory. I get it, that the benefits are nice, though.

AMS is a must, no doubt about it. Or else your panda will always be asleep/hexxed/cycloned/silenced. Vs HU with griffins or vs UD with a lot of wyrms I get AMS on every hero...

[Dovekie]

@Brilliance Aura: Fights last ~5 seconds in FFA. Sometimes 8 seconds. Rarely longer than that. I would rather survive burst damage than have a minimal mana aura that I don't really need.
-I go 2 circlets + Staff of teleportation on my Panda. I always staff him back to my base and heal his health / mana, and the extra circlets give him more mana anyway.
-Dotts have enough mana to keep heroes in the air. I dont want to cyclone units because I want chim to kill them.


Yeah lifesteal can be great in hippo vs garg wars, but not versus Orc. You can definitely make a few hippogryphs if you want, but my experience after countless games taught me to make less and less until I finally just stop making them altogether.

[aarnikratti]

@Brilliance Aura: Fights last ~5 seconds in FFA. Sometimes 8 seconds. Rarely longer than that. I would rather survive burst damage than have a minimal mana aura that I don't really need.

Man you can't be serious? Bolded = lol. And brilliance aura is the best aura / aura item in the game and you should pick/buy it whenever possible with whatever race or hero combo.

[Peregrine]

i dont think brilliance is that useful with NE - mana is never a problem except for 1 hero (panda) which you just gotta stack with mana pendents or circlets

but its the best item for UD or Orc 100%

[Dovekie]

Man you can't be serious? Bolded = lol. And brilliance aura is the best aura / aura item in the game and you should pick/buy it whenever possible with whatever race or hero combo.

You disagree with my statement yet you offer zero reasons as to why—instead offering this blind sounding rule (its the best! you have to do it whenever possible!!) that you try to follow without-fail.

Blanket all-encompassing statements like this are almost always wrong. Every rule is made to be broken. I hold that it is not that good for Elf, and the only 4 auras, in a normal game, that you should be using are drums, legion doom horn, command, and maybe trueshot.

[IWANTWC4]

Man you can't be serious? Bolded = lol. And brilliance aura is the best aura / aura item in the game and you should pick/buy it whenever possible with whatever race or hero combo.

You disagree with my statement yet you offer zero reasons as to why—instead offering this this a blind sounding rule (its the best! you have to do it whenever possible!!) that you try to follow without-fail.

Blanket all-encompassing statements like this are almost always wrong. Every rule is made to be broken. I hold that it is not that good for Elf, and the only 4 auras, in a normal game, that you should be using are drums, legion doom horn, command, and maybe trueshot.

I think it depends.  Of the standard heroes like I think Eshan said, only panda needs the mana.

Buuuut if someone is a heavy DoTT player, which most people ain't.  I think you could make the argument for brilliance then.   So extremely situational and rare.

[Peregrine]

@Dovekie and vampire aura which is incredibly useful as NE. even devotion can be good for hippo wars, or vs tanks. +1 armor on 16-24 hippos is pretty huge, especially if you add scroll of protection after.

[Dovekie]

Yeah you are right. I probably undervalue those vs light air because I fight dirty, have higher APM, or am using the Alch.  Devotion aura can be Okay versus bat heavy Orcs.

But that being said, I find simple inventories stronger for me. Elf army is already extremely powerful, I just need to keep my unhealable heroes alive, and have the ability to heal my army with scrolls. Everything else just a bonus, and I find value in Orbs / staffs.

[WES]

So I kinda figured (thanks to you all) what to do vs wyv/bats.
But I have a problem vs orc ground, especially if this is their main strat and they are good at it.
I'm talking about t3 headhunters, some tauren & all 3 casters.
Spiritlinked units with healwards are tough. Just yesterday I lost a battle with like 100 roared chims vs 100 orc ground. I did not have talons this time, unfortunately.
Was that my micro (I do not really micro in battles, as I've said before), or should chims lose to headhunter-caster-tauren combo? My heroes were lower that his, and the guy is much better than me, but still, that looked like I just fed him xd
I think I should make MGs vs orc ground, but then they got tauren?
Also, maybe dryads with dispell, or wisps to detonate? Idk. Spirit link is strong, gotta get rid of it, no? I also snipe healwards whenever I can

[IWANTWC4]

So I kinda figured (thanks to you all) what to do vs wyv/bats.
But I have a problem vs orc ground, especially if this is their main strat and they are good at it.
I'm talking about t3 headhunters, some tauren & all 3 casters.
Spiritlinked units with healwards are tough. Just yesterday I lost a battle with like 100 roared chims vs 100 orc ground. I did not have talons this time, unfortunately.
Was that my micro (I do not really micro in battles, as I've said before), or should chims lose to headhunter-caster-tauren combo? My heroes were lower that his, and the guy is much better than me, but still, that looked like I just fed him xd
I think I should make MGs vs orc ground, but then they got tauren?
Also, maybe dryads with dispell, or wisps to detonate? Idk. Spirit link is strong, gotta get rid of it, no? I also snipe healwards whenever I can

If you don't micro and they have an orb on TC and him in front.   Your chims will focus him instead of zerkers.   Orc ground is amazing.

Like they said above dotts would help a lot.   Cyclone heroes and when orc dispels cyclone they lose their buffs, if they don't then you should be able to kill the army without the heroes to support.

It's tough because you rarely see it nowadays.   The best time to take a fight is in your base with lots of wells for support and you can use wisps.  Otherwise avoid them, go around the army hit their base or expoes.   Orc ground is very very slow.  Or catch them while they're travelling and not prebuffed, but this is hard if they properly have scout wards.

Also Dr is best against orc. 

[deluded]

...actually cyclone already removes buffs/debuffs.

[IWANTWC4]

...actually cyclone already removes buffs/debuffs.

Ya?   And disenchant is a aoe spell.   So the army next to hero that get cyclones will lose their buffs.

[Dovekie]

Against mass Orc ground you don't need talons, but a couple might help. Just pure roared chim, some faerie, and scrolls. Mass chims (real mass, not this 30 food in workers where you hit someone and cry once they beat you  "teal win, he kill my army, gg" 80 food bs, but real 100 food chims).

Also you need to target the army not the heroes.