More unpopular opinions

[Dovekie]

-TC is a top 6-7 hero, definitely not #1.
-Stampede and Volcano are good abilities.
-The Demon Hunter is much more of an early game hero than he is a late game hero.
-People who make dryad + hippogryph armies are the FFA equivalents of sjw gluten-free feminazis.
-There is a disappointingly low hard cap to how skilled you can be in organized FFA.
-Crypt Lord is worse than the Fire Lord, Beast Master, and Pit Lord in non-random hero games. He is the worst hero in the game.
-Orc isn't stronger than Night Elf.

And I know I said this in my last thread, but:
-Hippogryphs suck. Night Elves should try making literally almost pure chim armies more, whether to surprise people or against Orc/Human and let their heroes kill the air.



Now you.

[Seksi]

-TC is a top 6-7 hero, definitely not #1.
-Stampede and Volcano are good abilities.
-The Demon Hunter is much more of an early game hero than he is a late game hero.
-People who make dryad + hippogryph armies are the FFA equivalents of sjw gluten-free feminazis.
-There is a disappointingly low hard cap to how skilled you can be in organized FFA.
-Crypt Lord is worse than the Fire Lord, Beast Master, and Pit Lord in non-random hero games. He is the worst hero in the game.
-Orc isn't stronger than Night Elf.

And I know I said this in my last thread, but:
-Hippogryphs suck. Night Elves should try making literally almost pure chim armies more, whether to surprise people or against Orc/Human and let their heroes kill the air.



Now you.

Hey Dovekie, I always enjoyed discussing FFA with you.  You have a lot of good insight in these points. 

I must contest, however, that TC has to be at least a Top 3 Hero.   Stomp is the single most overpowered 'battle ability' in the game.   It has a absurd AOE range and stun time at Level 3, it's almost instant cast and only cost 90 mana.   Aside from Stomp, Endurance Aura is the best 'battle aura' and last but not least, Reincarnation grants the TC immortality on a timer.   This is what makes TC better than another, similarly insane in power hero, the Panda.   Panda is at least vulnerable because his ultimate shuts down his main uses.   

I can understand the rest of your points, well said.  Crypt Lord does seem like the worst hero.  The one factor that Orc has over Elf is that it's the only race that can have the advantage fighting Human of equal power.  Elf and UD are weak to Human, naturally because Tanks own both their bases and air units.   Orc is less susceptible to Human.

-Human is the best race in FFA.  It is clearly above the other 3 races.  I would say it goes Human > Elf = Orc > Undead.   

Two changes I would make to FFA:

1. Increase Siege Engine food cost to (4) up from (3).   This slight change would balance the scales just enough.  Human 50, 80, and 100 food compositions would focus a certain degree less on Tanks. 

2. Increase Undead building's health and/or armor slightly.  Reduce the cost to produce a Gargoyle by (10) gold.    As it stands, Human, Elf, and Orc can all destroy Undead bases too easily.   The cost of a Gargoyle reduced by 10 gold would make them 175 gold (Hippogryph is 160 gold).   Gargs are like paper and they are expensive.    These two slight changes would bring UD back to balance in my opinion also. 

Lastly, I miss big FFAs.   4-way FFA is too organized, to use Dovekie's word, most times.  I think the greatness of FFA is found more often in games with 6 or more players. 

[Dovekie]

Yeah I just can think of at least 5 other heroes that are more relevant to winning an FFA game than the TC.

[FML|Mog]

What 5 heroes? For me, TC is the most vital hero for orc race, regardless of strategy. Top 3 hero for sure.

[Seksi]

I agree, Mog.  Here's the top 5 in my opinion:   

1. Archmage
2. Paladin
3. Tauren Chieftain
4. Pandarian Brewmaster
5. Shadow Hunter

[Dovekie]

I did say it was an unpopular opinion. Mbe didnt get the point of thread?

But on that note I think both blade and sh bring more to Orc than TC.

[FML|Mog]

I wasn't necessarily saying you are wrong Dovekie, I just think differently and was curious which 5 heroes you thought were better. I could see SH being maybe equally important to orc as TC, but blademaster? Definitely not... again, I guess it's subjective, but that's my opinion ;)

I think TC and SH are more vital because they synergize so well with orc, and you can basically cycle and 3rd hero into the orc arsenal along with those 2 and still be incredibly powerful. Whether it's alch, dr, panda..he'll even fs, you can dtill have a strong combo with tc/sh. Blade doesn't synergize as well, it just provides easy scouting with windwalk, and of course good dps, especially on maps with lots of good item drops or a marketplace.

P.s. sorry for typos... I'm typing on phone and also drinking so you know....

[Dovekie]

I could write many pages on why I think this way, but for I will try to articulate my thoughts because you both commented on it

I think in determining how strong a hero is, you need to consider the game in its entirety and, upon winning that game, how much of it was because of that hero. For example, the blade master:

1. The first 8 minutes of the game are extremely important, and the blade master is so strong and versatile here. There are 3-4 choices on how to handle this, and the blade can do them all very well.

2. Orcs weakest point is absolutely by far the 12 to 25 minute period, where any Elf or Undead with some gold and micro can ensure your loss in the game. A spirit linked, orbed blade master supported by heal wave and hex is what is going to carry you here. Level 1-2 endurance and level 1-2 stomp are nice, but this isn't the TC's time yet.

3. FS, Alch, DR, Panda are considerably weaker than the blade. They cannot fill his role. He provides too much damage, mobility, catching power, and tankiness.

4. Match Ups: Against Undead and Orc, the TC (and even the DR) is probably best, if not stronger than the blade master. The thing is, Orc has fallen out of the meta and having a good late game match up against Undead is overkill. Orcs real danger is human and elf, and the blade master is better versus both of these races. Stomp can find kills against heroes, but the blade master can kill 5 chims, blade storm 7 tanks, 5 towers, or a wall of wells in seconds. He prevents the enemies air and mechanical units from running or being staffed. He can be anywhere on the map in seconds, kill a hero or 3 units, and hurt an economy in the meantime. He can kill that hero that was staffed. He can efficiently tank for days while spirit linked, and he cannot be ignored, so he has to be focused sooner or later, but heal wave is so effective on him. The SH is also better versus these 2 races than the TC, and in order to win games, you need to get through the elves and the humans.

5. High roll. He consistently gives you about 30ish food worth of damage on his own, but can randomly high roll and get a few crits in a row and delete a key hero off the map. You create your own luck. Your opportunity arises once you high roll.

6. Synergy. All 3 of the Orc heroes syngerize so well together, but the blade is the carry hero and the other 2 are supports.  The strongest Orcs use the TC and SH to supplement the blade master rather the vice versa. If the game were won by moving around fast, disabling things, and healing, then it'd be a different story. At the end of the day, you need to kill enemies, and the blade master is the champion at it.

Some other heroes I think contribute more to winning a game more than the TC are the SH, Archmage, Shadow Hunter. I also think the MK is just a slightly better hero than the TC though they perform similar jobs. The MK is like a Hybrid between a TC and a Blade and I think he does a little bit more at the end of the day to give you the W.

If the games went later and Orc had less of a tough time early game, and there were more Orcs and Undeads around, then it might be a different argument. But as it stands I definitely think the blade master contributes more overall to Orc in an FFA game than the TC, as does the SH.

[ena1337]

Noobs

Go 1on1

I win

U're wrong

[zTsoso]

The reason why you think TC isn't top 3 hero is perhaps because all ffa players use air units and have learned to avoid stomp (except for imba blink dagger stomp usage).

Shadowhunter imo is the most crucial orc hero as it allows for several combining options with blade, tc and tavern heroes.

Heal wave is godlike, hex is great and the ultimate is also great...  SH is good in early, mid and late game.

SH provides so many options for hero combinations.
The synergy between for example:

Alchimist, TC, SH
Alchimist, Panda, SH
BM, Alchi, Sh etc. are also great.

Hell you could even substitute the alchimist/panda with a naga or fs if you wanted.

It would be fun to test hero combinations with sh without either TC or blade. I think u can come up with several good combos just because sh keeps it all alive and has hex to hero focus with.

I also think blade is extremely good as u point out, but no way near as good without SH. It's super hard to keep him alive without.

If you don't see the value in SH you should test his abilities in rdm heroes... It's like one of the top heroes I want to get with any race (with AM and panda ofc).

[Peregrine]

Some really great points here from all sides but when it comes to orc - you can win without blade but you simply are not going to win the game if you dont have TC or SH.

Its as simple as that.

If you cant win without a certain hero, that hero is more important in FFA. Blade can be OP but look at dovekie's post and see how many times he mentions sh support lol. Its the SH that is irreplacable. Same goes for the TC. You simply wont beat other armies without a TC.

The blade is the icing, but TC/SH are the cake

[Dovekie]

That's just it though—you can win without the TC, but without the SH is considerably more difficult.  And between the two, TC and Blade, I would rather have the Blade.

I also agree with most of what soso said, I have messed around with a lot of different Orc combos, and I think there is definitely some room for fun and strength outside of TC or Blade based combos.

Another lesson from rdm heroes is that if you have played enough of them, you will realize that your high level TC loses to their high level MK every time.

[Peregrine]

Random heroes lol

In normal ffa you will have an extremely tough time beating skilled players witthout TC .you will never beat another orc without a TC, you will get stomped, pun intended

You wont beat ground elf, or trunkz, or UD either. Without tc you can do okay vs human but the rest nope, not unless you have far far superior micro (but we are talking heroes, not players)

BM can be replaced by DR or Alch and it can be an improvement, especially in certain matchups. And can be replaced with FS, panda, naga, tinker, so many other choices and you will do fine because of TC SH

[Dovekie]

I also believe it is a player thing Eshan. This is meant in no offense to you, as I you do certain things better than me, but I can see how a TC is a better hero for you than a blade. Same thing with Trunks and a DH compared to most elfs—his DH is by far more important than any other hero, even carrying considerably harder than a Panda.

And on that note, I haven't played trunks in a while, but you generally don't beat him by brute forcing battles—in fact that's usually how you lose to him.  He camps with Elf ground.. You hit him with tanks or bats or bladestorm his buildings when he moves around.

I agree that the TC is better in mirror, but not too much better. You can actually just replace him with multiple other heroes and function relatively okay, while prioritizing your hexes on their TC. 


Is there a reason to replace the TC? Na. But I think both the SH and Blade do more work.

[zTsoso]

Another unpopular opinion I have is that talons are the most underrated unit in ffa.

Most elves just use it for faerie fire addition to anti air, but really the potential of talons is high vs orc and undead especially.

Trunks even showed that you can make good use of faerie fire and cyclone vs human. He uses faerie fire on tanks, heroes etc. and focus single target with high dps combos (dh, naga, potm combo with mass range of hipporiders).  With a hipporider army composition and a few talons you can simply kite the human who relies on tanks to kill air (since gyros are bad).

You can also use 1 bear, mgs and talons / range in the back and just a few dryads to dispel heal wards and other stuff. Even switch back and forth between unit compositions to kill off your opponents who have lots of anti air that is useless vs a pure ground army etc. Or switch from pure ground to a hipporider army that eliminates mortars and anti caster units in one-shot bursts.

Cyclone is a great ability that is so rarely used because all elves use the chimera hippo combination. Ofc chippo is easy to use and good for players with not so strong micro, but I feel that the level of creativity/potential for elves isn't used to its fullest.

Another underrated thing is the scout potential of faerie fire if you don't have potm. A talon in crow form is way better at scouting than a hippo.

Credit to trunks/dovekie who show there are other ways to play elf.

I also believe that you can swap the naga with kotg and keep it standard with dh, kotg, potm with talons/mgs/dryads or hipporider combination, and still be able to deal with all races effectively.