Feedback for S23

[Peregrine]

This thread is really alarming to me - first of all, the same few people are the only ones posting - the few people who have a problem with FFA as it is currently. I agree that maps like Gold Rush and Sanctuary obviously lead to longer games...but as a PLAYER, I don't usually mind.

If someone started messing with the gold counts on twilight or market, I would boycott

A few players seem to think that long games are horrible - but I would like to have an analysis of the average game length this season before you jump to conclusions. The finals was very long - but it was a good game, and if youre watching the replay you can just skip ahead. We don't play ffa so you can have an entertaining replay, thats just the icing on the cake.

Secondly, about score. If you start rewarding players for something other than WINNING the game, then you are changing and ruining what FFA is about.
Top score is just a metric that blizzard used as a sort of breakdown after the game, and it was definitely NOT designed for FFA - and should not be used to determine anything important. For some reason, high level heroes gives you a huge score, but lots of gold doesnt. But as we know in FFA, lots of gold is sometimes as important or more than hero levels in getting a win. So the scoring system is flawed for FFA
1 point for top score was a good idea, controversial at the time, but if you give any more weight to top score, then you are rewarding rambo players with good micro. Thats just one type of player, and it makes no sense to reward a game play STYLE rather than WINNING.

Overall we need to identify the issues with the current season. I disagree with DV, who says that only 3/50 games were close and fun and interesting. I think there were about 6-7 REALLY close games and thats a good percentage. And i found about half of the games to be an interesting watch. Most of the shitty games were in the earlier rounds when dumb players made bad moves.

All in all my feedback is that I thought this was a great season. There was a good variety of maps, the best players made it to the semis mostly. The winner was well deserved, the games were good, the competition was strong. The only issue was that it seemed human is slightly imbalanced, but i dont know how to fix that.

I am completely against timer - because of the issue of what happens when timer runs out - its hard to determine who is winning. As we have seen a million times, there is no real winner until the very end. So if you use top score to determine the winner after the timer, then you are completely fucking up FFA. Laxu won a retarded game vs renaud in this seasons first round, where renaud dominated all game but made ONE key error at the end (not pumping to 100). In a timer game, Laxu wouldnt have gotten his win.

If you are worried about game length then just play a season with 2 small maps, 2 medium maps, and 2 big maps. That should be fair

[Lightweight]

I could write map suggestions, rule changes and so on, but i think this league is overall great and the admin-team is experienced enough to make the right steps and twist some screws here and there. It doesn't need any big changes.

At least i have some funny ideas that i brainstormed through:

1. A round with rdm heroes!
I think most of us dislike random heroes maps (including me), but it would make up for some funny games i bet.

2. Tavern heroes only round!
Instead of random heroes we make a round where we can only choose tavern heroes. I know this might favour elves, but hey it's just an idea.

3. No-chat joker VETO
Every player has one so called NO-CHAT Joker throughout the whole season that he can use at anytime in the game which means that the rest of the players will not be allowed to use chat throughout the end of the game.

We can make some exceptions. For example vetoing a semi-final or final isn't allowed. THat would make up for some new strategies. You could use your no-chat veto right before u want to stomp someone with your army and he won't be able to call for help, people would have to scout more (Ebo-Style).

4. Make games more dynamic/fast-paced:
I agree with soso. Nobody likes 4 hour games where nothing happens after 30 minutes until the last 20 minutes where you get a thrilling base race.
Each of us has a certain age and time is a limited ressource to us, isn't it?
Find a way to benefit people who try to stay active and are interested to make games greater to watch for observers.

5. Reign of Chaos Round:
This sounds crazy i know, but why don't we make a round with Reign of Chaos?! I'm sure it is new to most of us and would provide some epic fun and strategies.

6. Point Distribution:
I agree with Eshan that the top score doesn't mean you have been the best player. There is hundreds of different approaches to play ffa. Being aggressive and going broke later while you ended as top score doesn't qualify you for extra points. The fact why most of us love ffa is because EVERYONE can win. Nobody would observe a game if you know that in 99 % of the games the same guy wins.

7. Bring back 12 ways!
12 ways cause chaos, insane dynamics, are a lot of fun to play and observe! The only problem is to get a proper cast for it 

8. Bring back Celebrity FFA:
You could make this a series. I know there has been pro-player ffa games before long time ago. Play 8 ways with a combination of 50 % solo pro's and 50 % ffa guys. I know the excitement would be big and you could promote FML very well through this.

9. Donation:
Give us a possibilty to donate a prize pool for the season, i'm sure we can get 100$ for the winner of a season. That would maybe bring back some lost players and new ones too, if there is something to win besides pride and honour.


That is all that i can think of right now. I hope you gonna like one of those.

Greeting,
Lightweight

[FML|WorpeX]

There was a time when I was all about bringing down the amount time FFA games take, however, i'm starting to change my opinion on that.

FFA is like the NFL of WC3. The season doesn't contain a lot of games, however, the games that are played are generally longer then your average WC3 game. Because there aren't a lot of games played in a season and we put a huge emphasis into scheduling, there is rarely an issue with game length. Most complaints come from non-ffa players who just don't 'get it'.

Now, I am more about improving the observer and spectator value of FFA. The most recent finals has proven that you can have a quality spectator experience on a long game. My goal now as an admin is to make FFA more accessible to viewers and more interesting to watch. I don't think that reducing the length of games is the answer. The answer comes in playing on the right maps and giving a greater incentive to aggressive actions. Hoarding and passive play is currently overpowered in the current meta and scoring of FML.

[aarnikratti]

I agree with Eshan. Many of suggested changes sound so artificial, unnatural. Mining mass gold, hoarding etc. are all part of FFA and its strategies, so gold amount should not reduce.

Either I don't buy the idea of evading the maps with higher grounds. It's also an element that is designed into this game and is one part which players have to pay attention when they are fighting.

And about the pointsystem, all I care is that there still should be a good advantage for the game winner.  The FFA is meant to be a game mode where only game winning matters, no top scores or something else.

One good idea which could implement is giving two map options for each match and players could vote which map they want to play. This would make some nice variation.

[DV-]

aarnikratti ur post is just one big silness

there are bunch of things u can call "part of the game", it doesnt make them GOOD
for league i mean
we play FML cuz its fun, right?

and if u say "only winning matters" so why the fucking hell past season was bunch of freewins except semifinals and final?


all of u are delusional about eternal classic super right format of FML
FFA is not THAT simple as solo, where u go with "dont cheat, kill ur opponent", its much more complicated and it REQUIRES rules, which are cannot be PERFECT for YEARS
Its just impossible to have perfect rules for 10 years

God, thats so obvious, i just cant believe i have to explain these things to u

[Lightweight]

What made the finals so interesting was the Wrecktify/Mog cast, i mean they really did a good job there. I agree with you Worpex, need to make FFA as interesting as possible for the viewers.

[j33.]

And about the pointsystem, all I care is that there still should be a good advantage for the game winner.  The FFA is meant to be a game mode where only game winning matters, no top scores or something else.

I agree fully. But if the top score is awarded it should be more than 1 pnts (assuming the current system).

About the maps, there are some racial benefits on small maps. Humans like to secure their expos with towers and they are good at holding those expos. In some cases hum can hold expo in 80 vs 50 pop situation. On the other hand elf expos are hardest to hold and no elf holds an expo with 50 vs 80. Usually teaming takes care of this shit on small maps. In theory different sized maps favor different races so there should be a good balance between the map sizes.

I loved the special round with random heroes. So Im also a fan of LWs special round suggestions.

After all, no set of rules or map pool can please every one.

[FML|WorpeX]

What made the finals so interesting was the Wrecktify/Mog cast, i mean they really did a good job there. I agree with you Worpex, need to make FFA as interesting as possible for the viewers.

I agree, and I definitely think that shoutcasting is important to providing a quality spectator experience! However, you can't devalue the game either. It was a fun game to watch which made it a fun game to cast - thus making it a good experience all around.

[Wrecktify]

too many walls of text, too much theorybullshit by noobs.

what works:

shorter season (makes regular season games more meaningful.)
map selection (good choices this season, dont feel compelled to reinvent the wheel next season.  repeats are fine.)

what doesnt work:

no set schedule.  seasons used to have full-season schedule released on day one.  revert to this.  current process of making up matchups every sunday night is silly.  a league = round robin.  a tournament = games determined by previous round.  FML = ffa masters LEAGUE not TOURNEMENT.

Smaller roster and/or smaller playoffs.  Top 3 goes to finals, next 4 go to a play in game seems appropriate.  Currently only the playoff games are played with an appropriate sense of urgency, because no individual week really matters. 

thats it.

(thats it meaning fucking with gold counts, scoring, or any other retardation suggested here would be retarded.  yes i know thats redundant.  go back to 20 players in ffa-A and use an FFA-B season to test crap rules.)

[aarnikratti]

aarnikratti ur post is just one big silness

there are bunch of things u can call "part of the game", it doesnt make them GOOD
for league i mean
we play FML cuz its fun, right?

and if u say "only winning matters" so why the fucking hell past season was bunch of freewins except semifinals and final?


all of u are delusional about eternal classic super right format of FML
FFA is not THAT simple as solo, where u go with "dont cheat, kill ur opponent", its much more complicated and it REQUIRES rules, which are cannot be PERFECT for YEARS
Its just impossible to have perfect rules for 10 years

God, thats so obvious, i just cant believe i have to explain these things to u

I like FFA on its classical way and that's the point, its fun for me. IMO some of these suggestions would ruin the mean purpose of FFA. And this is supposed to be a FFA-league, right? And your words about free wins past season are just stupid.

[FML|WorpeX]

no set schedule.  seasons used to have full-season schedule released on day one.  revert to this.  current process of making up matchups every sunday night is silly.  a league = round robin.  a tournament = games determined by previous round.  FML = ffa masters LEAGUE not TOURNEMENT.

Wait, when did we have a set-schedule? I would always make up the matches the week before when I was head admin. haha

[Dovekie]

I am completely against timer - because of the issue of what happens when timer runs out - its hard to determine who is winning. As we have seen a million times, there is no real winner until the very end. So if you use top score to determine the winner after the timer, then you are completely fucking up FFA. Laxu won a retarded game vs renaud in this seasons first round, where renaud dominated all game but made ONE key error at the end (not pumping to 100). In a timer game, Laxu wouldnt have gotten his win.

Dude the problem is that all the mines are usually mined out in like 40-50 minutes, and then the game will go another hour or MORE.  What the hell is that trash?  That only happens because everybody knows each other and being passive is so rewarding in that situation.  The higher the average skill level in the game, then theoretically, the longer the game will go.

Don't pretend you know what what would happen if there was a time limit.  It obviously would create a little bit of a different playstyle among everyone thats hard to predict without actually doing it—Its not like everyone would play exactly the same and then "OH Hey, btw games over times up!".  Games should probably end around 50 minute mark anyway if you look at the way maps and mines are set up.  Its chat and pointless, extremely boring passivity that makes games so long.  So if you set like an 70 min time limit on a smaller map and a 90 minute time limit on a bigger map then you are giving people 20 and 30 more minutes then they should actually need in the first place.

Honestly "organized free for all" is an oxymoron, and the more objectively I try to look at it the more pointless it seems.  If any type of play should be promoted, its the type of play that makes it more chaotic, instead of this weekly political meeting of sociopaths where you all gather around and use Warcraft 3 as a means to lie and manipulate each other for hours.  That's not good gameplay.  That's not good free for all.  That's not good Warcraft.  What that is is garbage, get me away from that.

[zTsoso]

"Honestly "organized free for all" is an oxymoron, and the more objectively I try to look at it the more pointless it seems.  If any type of play should be promoted, its the type of play that makes it more chaotic, instead of this weekly political meeting of sociopaths where you all gather around and use Warcraft 3 as a means to lie and manipulate each other for hours.  That's not good gameplay.  That's not good free for all.  That's not good Warcraft.  What that is is garbage, get me away from that."


Do you hear that Eshan?!?!?! You are garbage and so are your opinions. 

Dovekie is right though. FML always missed the chaotic dimension that ladder has. I might add it misses the "fairness" of playing on anonymous accounts where skills of versatility are truly rewarded and nobody is teamed because of name! 

I believe only a handful of FML players could actually make 75%-90% win rate on ffarena with at least 50 games :-)

P.S. - can somebody help me use quotes properly? This is just embarrassing

[Lightweight]

Honestly "organized free for all" is an oxymoron, and the more objectively I try to look at it the more pointless it seems.  If any type of play should be promoted, its the type of play that makes it more chaotic, instead of this weekly political meeting of sociopaths where you all gather around and use Warcraft 3 as a means to lie and manipulate each other for hours.  That's not good gameplay.  That's not good free for all.  That's not good Warcraft.  What that is is garbage, get me away from that.

I can sign that as it is. I sometimes miss the battle.net ladder because you had to figure by the playstyle who you are being up against and you actually needed scout. Besides that b.net ffa was shit due to hackers and delay.

[FML|Mog]

I actually agree with Eshan here. His wall of text pretty much sums up my feelings (as well as j33's earlier posts). There were a lot of entertaining games this season--in fact,  most of the 'bad games' were the short ones where a no ffa sense player with good micro ran around attacking everyone and 1 player essentially would get a "free win". The entertaining games were mostly the long ones. Where there is more to a win then just good micro and high level heroes. The problem I see with a timer is it destroys the strategic variance of ffa that makes it such a beautiful and entertaining game type. Take the finals for example: under.sta sat basically afk in his base for an hour. While it may not have been 'entertaining for the viewers', it was the correct ffa decision for him to have the best chance to win the game. While some people seem to dislike that aspect of ffa, it is what makes ffa such a great game type--that sometimes the best plays are the subtle ones, and even sometimes the best play might be doing nothing at all.

Also as a side note, the players who are super passive are not typically the ones winning. Conversely the hyper aggressive ones also do not win because it is not necessarily a good ffa strategy to try and win 1v3 ramboing everyone to death. The most winning players seem to be the ones with a strong balance of knowing when to be aggressive to push their advantage, and when to be passive to push themselves into an advantageous position. Those are ffa skills in and of themselves and are the kind of things that make fml the most competitive and highest level of ffa. And also what makes it different from ffa ladder both in the old bnet days and also the ffarena days we have now.