What I learned from playing only Orc for a few weeks.

[Dovekie]

I've spent ~40-50 hours the last few weeks trying to learn Orc. This is just a monologue of some statistics of my games and things I learned—coming from a Night Elf main, and Human/Undead secondary.

Here's the account I took slightly serious, keep in mind I played quite a few more games scattered around accounts and a ton on my main random accounts a couple months ago. Posting this now because I don't know how much more I'll play of it at the moment, I realize its not too many games. http://ffarena.lunaghost.com/?u=dralchsh

This account in particular is something like this:
1) 5-5 is using DR/TC/SH or DR/Alch/SH.
2) 4-2 Random Hero
3) 15-3 Blade/SH/TC

Of those 3 different hero combos/modes, here are my thoughts

1) DR combos felt very "sit and kick" combos. I.e. I'm not strong enough to win a fight without a huge army, so I'm just gonna chill in my base till I get strong enough. It felt very reactive as opposed to proactive, or luck based on whether I could safely mine enough gold. It also felt much clumsier as it gravitated my army composition to ground more often than I would have liked and left me, while strong in combat, less mobile.

2) Orc seems pretty strong in Random Heroes, having a good MU against Human and Undead, and goes even against Elf if you have a good bank and good scouting, and extremely disadvantaged if you don't.  Every hero seems to synergize well with spirit link + blood lust + heal ward, save maybe the tinker.  I dominated a game with multiple solos and teaming on Polska with FS/CL/FL, the combo felt strong rather than weak.

3) Blade Master combos seemed the most powerful in every imaginable way. The damage, mobility, purge, and blade storm carried most my wins.

And here is a giant list of random stuff:


-When using the Blade Master, I always went SH 2nd, and rushed level 3 asap.

-I learned you can stack the blade anytime on any map. Sometimes you just have to settle for 4 circlets, orb, invul, and Kodo + Bloodlust + Endurance, and whatever tomes you picked up. I was prioritizing this over units at times, and to say it didn't win me multiple games would be a lie. Blade Master dps and blade storm + stomp won me many games.

-Multiple games I had to harass workers while in a weak position just to get blade storm to be able to comeback with stomp + storm.
 
-I prioritized blade levels unless it would give me an odd level on TC/SH.

-TC I prioritized circlets and SH I prioritized Periapts.

-My Blade Master and SH never used boots in a single game, while my TC used them every game.

-I straight Wyvern teched every single Blade first and Random hero game, zero grunts, hh, or mercs.

-During tech I built 0-3 towers, and almost always bought 2 circlets even with Random Heroes. On maps like Sanctuary, if I spawned next to a Human or Undead I would build 3 towers before starting my tech due to paranoia.

-Most if not all my losses came from a poor performance or bad luck during the minutes 10 through 20.

-I think I only lost one game after the 30 minute mark, and it was my fault for poor performance against Elf and I probably a bad 10-20 minute period.

-I was angrier while playing Orc than any other race, and felt cheated all the time. Everything felt like other people’s fault and I was a true sociopath on more than one occasion. It’s hard to relax in a losing game when the race makes you feel like you deserve to win no matter what.

-I delayed my casters probably a little longer than most Orcs, feeling 65 food of Wyvern + Spirit Link + a few towers was more than enough to accomplish what I needed.

-I gladly creep-jacked people, stealing items and killing hero’s early game against random people without discrimination.

-Elf was always by far the hardest match up, but I definitely still felt advantaged assuming I had 100 food and enough money to lose 30-40 food and go again. This was the most punishing MU for me and I need to make more bats and be better with gold.

-I never felt like I needed gold to beat Undead and Human players. Just enough gold for 1.5 armies was always enough.

-I was super aggressive with my hexes before fights started to shut out a key enemy hero. This is why Elf might have been the hardest because they have 3 key heroes. 1 that takes mana, 1 that kills army, 1 that stops my hit and run. Which to hex? Usually the DH then stomp both Panda and DH was the best.

-Any item that wasn't circlet/periapt/tp on my SH/TC felt like a burden because they didn't help my cause and prevented me from buying scrolls, which I felt were more important.  The exception was high level, spirit linked TC who will never die anyway.

-Observer Ward feels almost as broken as stomp.

-I felt with Bloodlust any extra move speed was overrated, but TC aura was still great anyway, legion doom horn not necessary. Only command/brilliance and maybe trueshot/legion I would keep.

-Silence is strong against Orc, but really only if used from Elf.  I fought ~10 DR/TC/SH users and they were always a pushover with my higher heroes and greater damage, which I should have, mind you, using a stronger early game hero.

-I built tauren totems in only maybe a third of my games, even against Orc. I was so stubborn about this, but I think it was often a good decision to not invest the 600 lumber into tauren for the first 35 minutes of a game, especially on shredderless map.  I am a polarizing player and I don’t like to play fair, even though Orc has a nice balanced army.

-My upgraded Kodo was more for my Blade Master than anything else, however I usually only used one over 80 food or late game with low worker count.

-Wyverns + higher level heroes still won against Tauren Caster Bat HH if I scrolled well with spirit link and utilized good stomps + disenchants + blade storms or BBVoodoo.

-In at least a third of my games I waited till tier 3 to expand.  I did this because I felt like I only needed to have access to 1.5 armies to win any game and hero levels were the most important. I could insta-tower expand later and build an army. Defending with high level heroes, spirit link, some towers, and wyverns is a breeze. No one can kill a level 4-5 blade master with 4 circlets, spirit link, and level 2 heal wave support at that point in the game.

-Whereas with Human and Night Elf gold is a necessary evil, with Orc it felt like an after-thought, an unneeded luxury. Losing too many units when you have 70% faster move speed than the enemy, spirit link, healward, stomp, BBVoodoo, and healwave, is a bad habit.

-I didn't use Ancestral Spirit once (I forgot it existed)

-The Demon Hunters weaknesses tend to drive me crazy, i.e. he is the best hero in the game at standing still, and that’s about it. Tanking, Autoattack, etc. The Blade Master was so refreshing to use because he did double the Damage of the Demon Hunter, had triple the mobility, and had spirit link making him just as tanky, and stomp hex to allow him to actually kill things, not to mention being able to purge anything he hits to guarantee a kill.  The Demon Hunter has none of these things.

-If Blade was MVP the most, SH was MVP the second most and TC MVP the least, which is the opposite order I would have expected. I think stacking the BM makes the SH more valuable and thus this is why.


So here we have Northshire. I feel like there are 3 choices I have when the game starts:
-Blade + Grunt + quick expo
-Blade + Merc + slightly slower quick expo
-Blade + Item Hunt + late expo



It feels like a crime to not immediately take your expo here but I always chose the 3rd option. Say I spawned at the X, then I will go to 1, 2 in that order, then both 4 and 3. 1 and 2 drop a level 2 item (circlet, ring +2, glove, claw +6), and the wizard at 3 and 4 drop a level 2 tome. So say I get a circlet and a ring +2 from the greens, then I get a tome +2 str and a tome of knowledge from the wizards.  And I sell the ring and get my circlets. Now I have a level 2/3 blade with +11 str, + 9 agi, + 9 int, making me like a level 7 blade master before tier 2, and a level 10 blade master by tier 3. There are different advantages to having a level 7 blade master during tech versus having 1250 gold 2 minutes earlier.


I just want to reiterate my biggest issue with playing Orc, and that is the humungous variance that can occur during minutes 10 through 20.  I am a glass cannon at this point in the game, and losing a single battle or getting slightly teamed or getting an expo killed can set everything back so far and cause a loss more so than Elf or Human.  There are 6 caster upgrades, and I have to get them out quickly, and decide which order to get them, and set aside A TON of lumber for this, with the slowest lumber harvesting race (to be fair I don't need final walker upgrade for a while).  During this I need to get at least 2-2 or 2-1 on my Wyverns WITH envenomed spears. My SH needs at least one periapt, my TC needs boots, my Blade needs orb. I need at least 3-4 towers if a good Elf or Undead is going to push me because I will literally be throwing the game if I waste all my early game gold on bats to defend. I need 200 lumber burrow/tower upgrade.  I also need at least one expansion to have been mining for a while with prospects of getting a 3rd mine sometime soon.  Literally all these things need to occur to secure a game, and when they do, it's a total breeze.  When they don't, this race is suuuuuuuuper annoying to play. Getting teamed early hurts so bad. Getting expos harassed, bats blown up on you, having your TP hero slept while gargs kill your wyverns with Frost Nova support, making a single mistake, etc. etc. can just screw this race over so hard.

However, it's like the exact opposite of Undead, as you are SO strong once game reaches late game. If you make it through that tunnel of death, or just get lucky, or you play on point, then you are a literally GOD in the later game.  And this "late game" can start as early as minute 15 on shredder maps, which is INSANE.  I've had multiple sub 18 or 25 minute games if my early game went right. You put everyone on a clock and guess what, there is no answer to hexabloodluststomp BLADEFOCUSMYHEROESAREHIGHERTHANYOURS.

Also one last thing I paid a lot of attention to was my base build, and how strong it was early game, mid game, and late game. Some rules I generally had were having at least 2 beastiaries safely in the back for bats, protected Altar, having an open base, and having 2 sets of towers, the first clumped and the 2nd set randomly spread out.  This is because close together is good against Orc and Undead (as long as its not too many for Death and Decay value), and spread out is better against Elf and Human. 2 sets could only mean 5 towers, but I felt like at least 5 was necessary in case of teaming or scouting fail, things that happen to me every game.

Here are 2 examples:
Low - moderate gold base: https://s32.postimg.org/xlhn1bxp1/Lower_Gold.png
Moderate - high gold base: https://s32.postimg.org/nlfy4mx3p/Moderate_Gold_Orc_Base.png

Anyways. I am no expert with Orc.  I already knew a lot about this race but these are just a lot of things that I figured out myself that I thought might help some of you if you are interested.  I am better now at Orc mechanically and believe they are a very strong race. It bothers me when I can get a better record with an off race than with my original mains of Elf/Undead, but hey, what can you do.

[plush.]

I love this post because I had a similar experience when I did the opposite as you and began learning NE for FFA as a predominantly orc player. (I wanted to be able to play NE as an alternative for FML games against 2+ players who would likely rush me out as orc, like htrt and Maga, as well hopefully control and win games more quickly against players who preferred to hoard as much as possible - I didn't have time for 2+ hour games). Like you, I had some funny shifts in perspective given the different strengths and limitations. It was funny to go from fearing DK/lich/fiend rushes as orc to laughing them off once I got a level 3 DH with 1-2 circlets and boots.

I'm surprised you did as well as you did with wyv tech because my experiences were always the opposite. When I played orc in FFA, I felt like as soon as the game started there was a fuse that was lit and when it ran out, I would be teamed for being a reputable orc player during the part of the game where orc becomes one of the strongest races. For me the early game was about maximizing efficiency in creeping and expanding to secure every possible advantage to better combat the impending teaming. Wyv tech was never effective for me in accomplishing this. When I did try getting into FFA again once the FML bot went up, I actually gave up on orc for big games with lots of players and very few mines. I felt orc was limited without a bank for countering chippo with bats. I'm surprised you won more as orc than your main races when someone who mostly played orc like myself had the opposite experience during the 1.5-2 weeks I played bot games for.

[Dovekie]

I think the biggest difference is people don't get to hoard up lots of gold anymore with many mines. Or at least a lot of the people who do are often 50%~ winrate or worse, or the good players only do it in a smaller percentage of games.  If I were to fight an elf with over double my gold, I would have triple the hero levels, and I think I would win anyway, because a spirit linked blade master that is too high a level cannot be killed by elf.

Wyvern tech just seemed like a clean and consistent way to play.  You say I will have more gold and levels if I didn't (in the other thread), but I would argue I am much more effective with my gold.  Say I build a barracks + 2-3 grunts. That's 780 gold and 50 lumber I need to spend that becomes obsolete in 5 minutes.  Now say I buy 2-3 circlets and sell tp (which is what I usually do), I only spent 175-350 total gold, and zero lumber, which means I have 430-605 more gold at tier 2, and my blade master is just as strong as having 2 grunts would have given me.  That extra gold allows me to both expand and get Wyverns out minutes earlier in order to take key camps that would normally be taken at a later point.  I also expanded just as quickly as grunts would have allowed me to by tower creeping the expo on certain maps.  Maybe some maps I would need to make grunts, and Sanctuary comes to my mind as a good choice, but I just wanted to play consistent and ended up straight teching so I can stack my Blade early.

And who knows, I haven't made an Elf or Undead only account in years, I might do really well.

[plush.]

If I still had the game, I'd do a time table to show the difference because I can't exactly remember how long it takes for wyv tech and grunt builds to expand. Even with 780-980 gold spent on rax and grunts, a grunt build only needs to expand 80-100 seconds faster than a wyv build to cover that cost. I don't remember the exact timings but I think wyv tech expos came up 1-3 minutes slower on maps with easy natural camps, (Silverpine, Twilight, etc.) about 4-5 minutes slower on maps with harder naturals (Market Square, Murgul Oasis, etc.).

In a bigger game, I'd be more reluctant to wyv tech as orc. If I spawn near a human and I wyv tech, I'm a level 3 AM and defend footmen rush away from dying or being crippled (as long as they also cancel my expo once during the early game). I think what you've really highlighted is for games with more early skirmishes and less hoarded gold overall, a stacked BM is Orc's biggest advantage and best way to win consistently. Grunts allow a faster expo, they make it more possible for preventing other players from cancelling that expo, and this earlier boost in income makes it easier to purchase boots and more circlets to help carry us toward and even during parts of the late game.

[SteppinRazor]

I am definitely not the best orc player, but I am probably better then average and have played my fair share of games. 

I actually think orc takes more skill/is harder to play then most people think.  IMO a mediocre/bad orc player is among the easiest of tomes in FFA games and even a good orc player caught in a bad spot dies quickly.  I agree with a lot of your points, esp about DR orc.  I've played the combo countless times, and while powerful I feel much more confident using a BM.  IMO orc actually has a difficult army to play, as every unit does very easily (esp before 5 SH) and really only once you reach 6/6/5+ does the true power of orc heroes kick in.  I enjoy orc in bot games though, I think you can dominate against mid-level and even decent players with fast aggression and fast high levels.  Against top players of course you will get put in your place much faster. 

I've always found human to be by far the toughest opponent.  Orc probably beats elf in an "even" playing field, and certainly has a lot of advantages against undead (if you can make it to full tech army which is really tough if you are in a game with a player like Maga). 

Its definitely a lot of fun to play though... and its natural to want to creep jack and kill everything even early game with a BM.  I guess its what orc players do lol

[Dovekie]

a grunt build only needs to expand 80-100 seconds faster than a wyv build to cover that cost.

But that gold is still lost forever. I always mine out my natural and main completely so I am going to be up ~1k gold in the long run. I'm not one to really look at things like this usually but it has definitely played a role in my games if I didn't get to expo as aggressively as I would have liked.

In a bigger game, I'd be more reluctant to wyv tech as orc. If I spawn near a human and I wyv tech, I'm a level 3 AM and defend footmen rush away from dying or being crippled (as long as they also cancel my expo once during the early game)

Yeah maybe.. Many maps I can buy 2 mercs real quick and purchase a Panda from the tavern, and will have 3 towers and lots of available peons to help repair, whilst my beastiaries go up in the back, or even maybe a rax for demos, during this my towers + stacked blade can really hurt his army, not to mention enough gold for infinite health pots.  If he expo'd he will not win the push.  He might prevent me from expo'ing and beat me ~8 minutes in the future, but I don't think so, as I can tower up an expo right at tier 3 pretty well.

[Peregrine]

Re: gold mines - i fast tech with BM but often use mirror image to secure a fast expo at the same time, putting me ahead in both tech AND keeping me even in gold. On maps where you cant solo BM expo, it can be useful to grunt expo depending on your enemy matchup. Dovekie keeps writing from an experience of pubstomping ffarena bot games where he rarely combats the level of skill, intelligence, and preparation that goes into FML games. In the FML finals two seasons ago, I was playing a nearly perfect orc game, getting my fast tech, fast expo, shredder and wyvs + lust, but I spawned next to Tyrant as UD and his perfectly timed rush proved impossible to defend against for too long. Youre not gonna face that in bot games. Same thing with the HTRT rush on Ostone posted here recently.

And then at the other end of the game, the reason Orc has had little success in winning FML, is that everyone and their mother is happy to team the orc. Everyone knows that an Orc wins hero arena and late game battles, UD especially fears it, so people will team you out for your strength. Fetta and dinamo just did it to me in my last FML game, it happens to NLIne in half his games.

And lastly, about the DR, it can be really powerful, it just may not fit Dovekies aesthetic. It has possibly the fastest creep in the game putting you leagues ahead in levels, items, and securing 1-2 expos easily. Once you have level 6 DR, its nearly impossible to lose any fight against any race. You have to do significantly worse than your opponent to lose a battle. Silence shuts down heroes and casters (and completely negates whole armies like necrowagon), Charm gives you a ten food swing at the start of any battle, stealing a kodo a bear or making a UD give up on wyrms completely is a gamechanger, and then the superior orc power coupled with stomp and hex annihilates their army. Yes you dont have a shitty little bladestorm to kill towers but you can just retrain to shockwave to siege. Usually you dominated their army and can freely snipe towers anyway. AND on top of all that you can charm a worker and dual race, getting chims or staffs or tanks

[Dovekie]

Dovekie keeps writing from an experience of pubstomping ffarena bot games where he rarely combats the level of skill, intelligence, and preparation that goes into FML games.

You, and mostly you alone keep saying this untrue statement. Other than maybe ~5-6 players that you find in the FML games, ladder provides a very similar experience minus the coordinated teaming (at least as much) and the artificial extra hour long inflation on games to decide a random winner as opposed to the best player.  I don't want to name names, but generally the average FML player is a 50% ladder player, and I fight them, and other 50%'rs all the time. There are also really good smurfs around where I fight incredible players on new accounts, or just solid players, period. Yesterday I played 2 games and there was a 13-2 guy in it who I've never heard of, who played better than most of the FML guys you praise, you know, the ones with this really high level of intelligence, skill, and preperation (which I completely disagree with talking about the average FML player).  But even a lot of these good FML players can't even go above 60% on ladder, which a lot of us think is a much more true form of FFA anyway.

[Peregrine]

Dovekie youre just so good

[Peregrine]

Ugh ill take the bait a little bit - to clarify, not every player in FML is better than smurf pros you see on bot, but the level of the game as a whole is higher. You have 4-6 experienced players, who know FFA and who their opponents are, and who know that if someone like Dovekie is going rambo pubstomp mode and toming someone, that he is an easy target to team down. Thats why in the rare cases where you have a stomp game in FML its usually due to two idiots who decided to tunnel vision solo each other while someone else tomed and cleaned up. If eyes are kept open, which they usually are especially in later rounds, then you can't swag your way to victory. Also, aside from a few like you, nobody is trying in botgames. I say that even as a player who will stay to the bitter end to get a win, but I am not playing with near the focus or intention as I could. I mean half these games are random hero games for gods sake. I commonly will show up a min or two after game start cause I was alt tabbed while waiting in lobby or im trying a new strat, and Im always playing random - which is not usually the case in FML, most players are focused.

All of this is to say that my main point was: going no expo BM aggression is fruitful in bot games, and everyone knows its a terrific hero combo, but youre not gonna win FML games with nearly the same % doing that

[Dovekie]

I mean I actually agree with plush, I think grunt + blade is better. I'm just saying what I did and had success with, and I don't think it's as weak as he makes it out.

I usually don't give my best in ladder games at all, so I don't know what you mean by that. I will play a hard solo in the first half but I don't scout nor do I try and expand or macro late game at all.  The extent of my try-harding was sticking to a set strategy and using blade/sh/tc to try and more familiarize myself with standard Orc.

Give me a type of strategy that can give you a good % win rate in FML. There doesn't exist one, because the better you play the more you get teamed. Say I do come up with an incredible strategy, it will only work for 1-2 games before people know to team me harder to create the perpetual balance of power, or they will team me out regardless because they think they won't beat me, which I've seen happen and its something that continues to happen. The smarter the players are, the more the game will be decided on chance rather than skill, which is great for the Elves and Undeads.

[junkerzam]

The smarter the players are, the more the game will be decided on chance rather than skill, which is great for the Elves and Undeads.

This makes no sense, please explain. It only takes one retard in a game and it can be decided purely by chance because of stupid decision making and unintentional suicides (tunnel vision, rushing into surround, poor gold estimation etc).

Bot games -> bulldoze your way to victory
"FML games" or other tournaments with only good players -> outsmart your opponents, good micro helps in all stages of the game but it's worth jack if you don't "play the game" and manipulate/team when you need to

[Dovekie]

Because so-called "smart" players create a perpetual balance of power by teaming each other down in really long games.  Often when you put a bunch of good people in games, they are usually longer than 2 hours, the map is mined out, and everyone is ultimately super weak, usually running around with just heroes. Players like this don't let others hide armies.  Players like this don't let one person keep a full base when they don't personally have one.  But, guess what, it's actually smart to be passive at points like this, which is why you see people like tyrant and maga at the highest skill level, so everyone might still have gold and base and armies at 2 hours in the game, instead of just heroes, which is insane. If smart people are playing, stronger players are teamed harder and weaker players are teamed lighter. You think the smartest player wins during this purge? If the smartest player wins, then why is there absolutely no consistency from game to game? Because there is a whole lot of luck, and arrogating yourself into thinking it is intelligence that wins you these things is absurd, among "smart" players it is so much more random.

[Tleilaxu]

You think the smartest player wins during this purge?

Isn't that exactly what's implied? The smartest player who made the best decisions will end up winning in the 3-way wheel.
Not saying there isn't luck involved (in fact luck is an important factor in FFA at all stages, from the beginning to the end), but I think you're grasping at straws here, buddy.

[Dovekie]

You think the smartest player wins during this purge?

Isn't that exactly what's implied?

That is indeed whats implied and ideally that's what would happen, except for the fact that it doesn't.  And if it does, can you get away with it 2 games in a row?  And if you manage that, which shouldn't happen, what group of idiots will let you win your 3rd game in a row?