Unpopular Opinions

[Dovekie]

Feel free to share your unpopular opinions, assuming you actually have any (you should).  Keep it to FFA strategy and don't name any players.

Here are some of mine:
-Boots are overrated. I think the gold is often better spent elsewhere both early game and super late game, which is when they are best. Auraless, Avg MS heroes obviously need them tho.

-Dark Ranger is the single most overrated hero in FFA, and is only optimal against Orc, who have 30%+ movespeed and bloodlust to run away anyway, and in a small percentage of stalemates.  She is good, mind you, but hugely overrated.

-Mass TP is underrated. Its already looked at as one of if not the powerful thing in FFA, but I think even the best humans use this to 25-35% of its potential.

-Ground is bad, save for a few specific cases. Ground is too fair, and if you are playing fair you are playing wrong.

-Balanced armies are often bad, see "Ground is bad"

-Hippogryphs are often terrible units. They literally do next to nothing in so many cases and are probably the single most overproduced unit in FFA.

-Tinker doesn't need to be played as a laming hero.

-Towers aren't lame at all, and if you have problems beating people who tower that is your fault for playing/being bad/using Undead. They are necessary as human and orc against competent Elves and Undeads early game, or to buy an extra 3-5 minutes to get an army.

-Undead is even worse than people think and the fact that good Undeads win is because:
1. Manipulation/teaming.
2. Massive early game lead.
3. The Undead is a much better player
4. The matchup is being played wrong by the non-undead.
The FFA community is filled with what I call "Undead-enablers". i.e. people playing bad and losing because they don't understand how weak Undead actually is and how to manipulate it.  However, before the 25-30 minute mark, Undead is beyond glorious.


These are just some opinions of mine. If you disagree, congratulations, you get the point of the thread. What are some of yours? Or you can discuss some points of mine/others.

[FML|WorpeX]

-The Crypt Lord is the single most powerful being in the galaxy.

[DV-]

wow, dovekie, you read my mind on most of the things
I agree with almost everything
Thats crazy

I would add
- Gyrocopters being heavily underrated, they are super mobile and strong antiair unit with some micro they counter gargs and hippos just terrible. PPL cant use gyros properly in late game but they also dont use them early when they are better than tanks which is dumb

[Tleilaxu]

Agree with the part about mass tp and undead being weak.

Demon Hunter is by far elf's best first hero choice. Many people choose dark ranger, and I think for people who are not mechanically top tier dark ranger can be better because it gives you a leverage once you get charm. But even though charm is amazing, silence can be dispelled and you can't dispel fucking Metamorphosis or mana burn.

Blood Mage is underrated, especially on small maps. Siphon mana is basically  human's  version of mana burn.

[Peregrine]

Undead is weak...
"However, before the 25-30 minute mark, Undead is beyond glorious."

Lol.

Undead isnt that weak - the key is to rush somebody or build an early advantage, and on small maps that can get you the win outright. Its weaker in the lategame, but so is elf, so you need use intelligence and cunning to win instead of brute force.

Most of those thoughts are pretty common sense (ground is bad lol - who uses ground except for tanks? besides trunks)

The one thing I disagree with is about DR, its not overrated. A few years ago DR was UNDERrated, then Seksi wrote his guide or something and everyone uses him - but the DR is a top 10 hero. The DR can put you at a huge advantage if you play aggressive elf, creeping faster than any other hero and going into an early attack on someone with level 2 or 3 silence, getting fast charm, and overwhelming your first opponent, propelling you to an early lead.

With Orc, the DR is also very powerful but most people don't use him correctly (or at all) and the BM is much easier, more fun to use, and stacks well on item maps.

[Dovekie]

Elf is slightly weaker late game because they don't have a combat heal/stun and their bases don't have towers. Thats literally it, other than that you are still extremely strong late game. I guess devotion aura on tanks is your other big worry.  Comparing Undead late game to Elf late game? Undead is 1000x times worse. The only thing carrying you is unholy aura + nova/carrion/infernal and hoping your gargs can attack air uncontested for a few seconds.  Elf has 10-15 things going for them compared to Undeads 3-4 things.

Seksi is the key overrater of the DR :)  He had her ranked like 1 or something, but I agree that she can be top 10.

What you say about DR can be just as easily accomplished with DH, Alch, or Tinker first, all who I would prefer to have after minute 30.  In fact it's often harder with the DR because thats all she can do in your first chim push—silence.  DH can supply your army with 50% more damage and is an unkillable tank, Alch even more damage, and tinker creeps even better than the DR and IMO pushes harder too.

I'm rarely EVER in a game where charm decides it. I'm in a game every other day where something like metamorphosis or bladestorm decides it.  DR with with Orc is funny. I don't know what the craze is but I've played against it multiple times a day every day lately on ladder. I've even used it myself. It is inferior to Blade in almost every imaginable circumstance. "most people don't use her correctly". How do you use her then? She lacks mobility, hero killing, tank killing, tower killing, the 35 food worth of dps, the good early game etc etc. that the blade provides.  Walking around early game with DR HH is like walking around with Potm Archers but screams out even louder "HARASS ME" "I don't even have moonwells, come get your free EXP".  Then you need to tower up if an Undead is going to hit you early, and you have no mobility, and then if you get teamed early the best you can do is "hope" to live because DR can't kill things like a blade with an Orb.

I think the blade is actually hard to use well, and very few people do it right. Very few.  I've said multiple times that if pro solo players got into FFA the strongest heroes would likely be Blade Master and Demon Hunter, because they understand positioning, trading, and auto attack importance so much more than FFA players, and these heroes are the best in the game at it.

[letshavesomefun]

ud is not weak its the most powerfull race in ffa! they are the strongest race in early game. And with the early game adventage they can easily use a banshee to get a second race on big maps. On small maps they dont need it cuz i think we all agree that ud is the race working best with only a few mines avaiable. That nearly noone uses banshees is a shame but foult of the ud players. if you wanna see a good use of banshee check this link:

     ZagothegayZebra is one of the best ffa undeads ive seen in my life! + its a very nice and close game

[Peregrine]

Shave that is one of my most painful losses of all time :'(

If only I timed the hex stomp at the end

[Pinballmap]

I wouldnt say that Mass TP is underrated. Like you said it is just not used properly or not enough efficient. Especially in combination with various critters spread on the map it can be ridicolous to deal with.

Also who is ZagothegayZebra?!

[Slythe]

- I donīt use boots much, but sometimes they are worth it. In hero skirmishes/escapes/kills or to counter/inflict lame.

- I donīt see many Darkrangers running around lately. Itīs a very powerful hero and so easy to use. You can creep very quickly, best herocounter via silence and it gives you the ability to add useful units lategame via charm or go for a double tech.
DR has its weaknesses in certain situations, but i donīt understand how you can consider it that overrated.

- Mass TP gives you many opportunities and is often enough a game changer, no doubt about it. A good reason to get teamed, aswell.

- ground army is a good alternative early and midgame. In late game it lacks mobility, being too vulnerable to nuke/hit and run.

- What do you mean with "balanced armies" ?

- Somehow i donīt like the quote "playing fair is playing wrong", although it sounds catchy i have to admit

- Hippos seem to be really like the most overproduced unit, haha, but hey not their mistake for being so strong survivors (nerf please) - i like to build hippo-riders with overproduction, which usually sucks, though :D

- I like the tinker-rockets and add another aoe hero and generally not a fan of lame play, but buildracing is a good alternative, once you cannot have big battles. Itīs possible to push with a tinker, but factory is killed too fast in ffa with many units, or there are air units, that do not care. Being save against heavy nuking does not qualify the tinker enough to be a true alternative for "normal" play, imo.

- Towers are a good tactical tool, but they are often used to lame, prolong games, gives players a false feeling of security or being spammed by (female !?) gamers as a phallus symbol, it seems ;)

- Undead definitely is overall the weakest race. Let me quickly list things they are good at: Nuking (orb of corruption, spells), Early game aggression, Speed (only with dk), Can build 10000 Builds with one worker. Everything else is more easily counterable than other racesī strengths.

Itīs totally different to counter or use heroes/strats if youīre playing with players, that are equally experienced in ffa or good at micro, or if you are playing public games. ( classic 4way bnet high lvl games are also so differently to these days public bot games)


After referring to dovekies original post iīll add some of my thoughts:

- warden is underused. Good dps, tactical play, ulti underrated. Problem: low hp/mana, needs a lot of micro.

- AOW creeping is way too good

- Trees are not used enough offensively lategame

[Dovekie]

I think Factory + tanking is what makes the Tinker still strong in battle, especially near enemy buildings. Elfs DPS is inside their Chims and Panda, and what they often need is a good tank.  Tinker plays this "good enough". Not as well as the Demon Hunter but good enough IMO to make him good from the other things he brings. Cluster rockets is very strong against Tanks couple with BoF as well, but thats about it. Maybe chasing heroes super late game when thats all they have left.

Why is the Warden underused? Using her at all ever means she is overused. She is a good hero but good isn't enough. What race do you want her for? She is not good against Human, as she does nothing to tanks/breakers/MK/pally, and her damage is too low against Gryphs. Bolt + Breaker = sad, if not dead, warden. Against Elf the Demon Hunter is miles ahead. Against Undead she is outclassed by the Alch, DR, and DH. Against Orc she can be okay, but I think she is outclassed by those same 3 heroes. She is fun and mobile and annoying, but I think she is outclassed by multiple other first choice heroes.

[Dovekie]

...

[plush.]

Hi, guys. This thread reminds me of the guide I wanted to write but never did before I stopped playing. Here are a few things I can remember I would have wanted to say that may have been/still be unpopular:

-Most of the time for orc players, taurens are unnecessary unless there's another orc in the game. Especially on non-shredder maps, the resources spent on totems, melee weapon upgrades, and pulverize are better spent elsewhere.

-Orc players should never ever, ever, ever ever wyv tech for the early game. Play a custom game with a wyv tech build and creep route and then play a game with a grunt or HH build and creep route. Note the huge difference in gold, caster tech speed, and hero levels and never wyv tech again!

-More often than not, DR first for NE and Orc isn't worth it. It's not because she isn't strong, particularly in a large 1v1 fight, but because she's largely a defensive hero (I.E. preventing pressure more so than applying pressure). She does this so well in large 1v1 fights that these strengths can warrant teaming. The most common teaming situation is being 2v1'd in a 3way. Even with all her strengths, she offers nothing for busting through globs of towers. Winning a fight, quickly destroying much/all of someone's main, and forcing them to rebuild rather than assist the other player can make a 2v1 into a much more manageable pair of alternating 1v1's. The DR may make winning a fight and forcing someone to retreat into their main easier but then what? Heroes like the DH, FS, and, to a lesser extent, blade master, can help crack bases quickly with their ultimates and help deal damage that's harder to recover from quickly where the DR cannot. Winning 1v1 fights while being teamed doesn't help players win as much as it does to win slightly harder 1v1 fights and quickly wreck bases after.

-"Death star" mains (tightly packed towers that surround one's main and cover most/all of their base) are almost important as creeping, expanding, using hotkeys, breathing, etc. (The exception is UD because their towers are so weak. A NE "death star" is mass moon wells.) As a rule, if players have some gold in the bank and a base that prevents them from easily being eliminated, they still have a decent chance to win.

-Don't "wing it" on creeping and expanding. My eventual philosophy as an FFA player was if I were to breakdown FFA into its components, like creeping/expanding, micro/macro in fighting, and "manipulation"/communication/teaming, and rate what I was best at and what I was weakest at, creeping/expanding would need to be my #1 strength. I learned this by perpetually losing to Nooblex in ladder games because I ran out of gold for bats before he ran out of gold for chippo. When I watched the replays, it was always the same lesson for me: he put up his 2nd and 3rd expos faster than I did because his creep patterns were built around securing gold mines quickly rather than chasing after camps with good item drops, such as sobi masks and energy pendants, like I tended to pursue at that time.

-Against experienced players overall, "manipulation" is one of the least important skills. I was watching some of Mage's old FML shoutcasts and in one of the games with htrt, soso, and a rich UD they were both attempting to team, htrt basically admitted he still had gold, called out soso for still having gold, and then he preemptively called out for soso holding back on making units like other players would in that situation. He then did exactly what he preemptively accused soso of doing and committed very few units to the teaming. This is, in my opinion, highlights exactly why some players love "manip" and why it only works well when it comes in a less expected way. In other words, this worked because htrt, if I recall correctly, was more of a fighter than a talker. Communication is important, particularly when one player is much stronger than the rest, but "manipulation" (communication with big lies) is like a trick play or onside kick in football. To win as much as possible, people would ideally be able to lie and counter lies, but it's not a high percentage move nor how players should try to win most games most of the time.

-Plan where buildings are going to go from the start. Certain buildings are better at blocking out tanks from a mass TP on a player's main and help a hall stay alive longer to ensure players can TP home. For orc, the main should eventually be completely surrounded in towers, borrows, and nothing else. For NE, the main should eventually be completely surrounded in moon wells, chim roosts, and/or a hunter's hall. For UD, I think zigs only excel at this and for HU, towers and farms. It can be a headache but it's not as bad as losing a won game from not killing a critter and having your main fall before the TP finishes.

I'm not sure people will find some of this disagreeable/unpopular when theory-crafting and whatnot, but if the FML shoutcasts I watched are any indication, a lot of this is still unpopular when it comes to putting it into practice.

[plush.]

-Hippogryphs are often terrible units. They literally do next to nothing in so many cases and are probably the single most overproduced unit in FFA.

When I played, this was so true. NE does need them against mass gargs, NE air, and mass wyvs (wyvs crush dotts without hippos to tank). I think because they're so commonly needed, they're also typically built even when fighting armies that dotts are much better against, like gryph/tank and fiend/wyrm.

[plush.]

*double post*