Civil discussion of Race power in FFA

[daselend]

Re: top elf and Ud combos, I'd say they are in the 6-7 range, but assuming everyone is equal skill level (e.g. maga-skilled orc vs maga-skilled ud), I'd go for the lower number. I think with higher skill the imbalance becomes clearer.

I think the opposite is true for FFA - long time ago I wrote somewhat of an essay of why I would always prefer BM over DR. The gist was - with DR you give the ball to your opponent. If he's good enough, he will dispell quickly, and your hero becomes basically useless (charm aside). With BM, this is not the case. You may try to negate him with sleep or snares, but this is where the orc player gets the ball back and may dispell himself.

I strongly believe higher skill is the main diminishing effect regarding imbalance. In solo, imbalance still matters on the highest levels, but this is due to the fact that solo pros really play close to the perfect game (control, macro, timing). That's something almost unachievable in FFA, there's always a lot of mistakes to capitalize on.

An orc army, for example, is very often perceived to be ridiculously imbalanced because people don't dispell properly (not saying it's easy). It is much less scary unbuffed/dispelled. Another example: a terrible UD stands no chance vs a terrible night elf in gargs vs chippo. A good UD will know how to hit and run and may very well beat an equally skilled elf.

Edit: In my opinion, the underlying problem is perceived imbalance vs imbalance.

[rygorych]

I think you have some good points, but I still wouldn't say that higher skill = less imbalance.

In many cases, higher skill = better exploitation of imbalances
In other cases, you're right, higher skill = better countering of imbalances

[daselend]

It's a very complex topic - DR is often perceived to be overpowered in OvU. Whenever I played UD though, I was much more afraid of BM, since I couldn't simply dispell his strength away. Higher skill at the least takes away some of the commonly perceived imbalances which, in my opinion, are not imbalances at all.

[FML|Renaud]

I perceive bats to be imbalanced because they kill themselves, denying any xp, while giving the orc a ton

Hex can be dispelled, and I don't mind it nearly as much as bats

[rygorych]

I perceive bats to be imbalanced because they kill themselves, denying any xp, while giving the orc a ton

Hex can be dispelled, and I don't mind it nearly as much as bats

In a perfect world, you're right.
In the real world, bats give 2x normal exp, die brutally fast, and aren't resource efficient in countering anything except light air. Bats are useless once gold counts dwindle. A good UD with 12 garg can win a game vs  100 food griff average skilled hu. So can a good NE with 12 hippo/dott. An orc with 12 bats can't. Bats are only good when you have a gold to build a real army afterwards.

Bats are fine. Orc heroes, taurens and casters are OP, not bats.

[FML|Renaud]

are you counting heroes?  Because if you are, I CALL BS!

[rygorych]

are you counting heroes?  Because if you are, I CALL BS!

Don't get this. Counting where?

[FML|Renaud]

when you said 12 bats can't kill 100 food gryph, but 12 garg or 12 hippo could

Because if you don't count hero, you are saying a good player with 12 hippo could kill an average player with 25 gryph (total bullshit)

And even if you are, it basically means that you think that Hu hero are total trash

[darkermirror]

you have some opinions which few ppl disagree with

bats are lie renaud advocates one of the most imba units
late game rather than 3 frosties id have 10 bats, much rather actually (esp with orc heroes)

what is important is food count comparisons. if i want to win vs similar skill orc i need 100 food, extremely fast clicks for staffs+scrolls and cyclone bm/dispel hex.

gryphons are not countered by bats, neither are frosties. however wyverns and chims as well as hippos and gargs (except great stone form) are completely taken apart.
bats only die fast if u have no sentry ward to prepare you to shift click air. good ud with 10 gargs no chance vs 20 gryphons esp with heroes even without no chance. orc does not need army bm/tc/sh is army. 12 hippo dott no chance vs 20 gryphons either. with even food count ofc. somewhere someone checked how effective bats are.
the point is that bats become more effective the ore you have cos of splash.
3 chims vs orc and orc is fucked with bats however 10 chims and you are fucked more than him. however 3 chims are killed in 15 sce seconds by one on bm, one hex and one caster focus fire with purge.


however i think tanks are also far more imba. 3 human heroes with 1 tanks cannot be killed by ne if continuous staff is used and not atleast 50 food and silence/keeper are used.

[rygorych]

"orc does not need army bm/tc/sh is army"

A common myth. SH dies in seconds to focused fire by any heavy air + nuking /disabling heroes. Orcs have no staffs to save it. Stormbolt to the face + griffs/entangle + chims / ud nuke + frosties destroy even a periapt loaded sh in seconds.

Note, I'm not saying SH is bad. I'm saying that it's common misconception that orc triple hero can take on entire armies and win.

They can take reasonably on small armies (under 40 food) and weaker heroes (see my game vs louis on crucible, where I came regularly to kill 1 chim, then backed off to heal/mana up. my heroes were much higher than his, he had 3 chims 2 mgs and 3 heroes). No way I would win this fight if he had a disable or had equal lvl heroes.

Also, I don't normally use BM.

[FML|Renaud]

"Also, I don't normally use BM."

You used him 66% of the games so far :/

And most good orc player have invul pot on SH, combine that with the good old "I can heal myself llololol" spell, and you have a hero that won't die.

But go ahead!  Focus him while the bm kills half your army

BM TC SH are not able to kill 100 food army, that IS a myth
BM TC SH with a shaman and a walker are able too do it

[rygorych]

Focus him while the bm kills half your army

BM TC SH are not able to kill 100 food army, that IS a myth
BM TC SH with a shaman and a walker are able too do it

Myth. Not possible vs a player of equal skill. 40-50 food at best, and not vs HU with instant 600 hp heals, and only if the orc hit and run rather than stay in fight.


I used BM once out of 10+ games in FML. Last game was a joke combo.

[FML|Renaud]

Oh good, you won with a joke combo, that will help the whole "only hero are imba" thing :/

I agree that YZ is a much better player than me, I say it shamelessly.  But I still think that i'm a decent player.
His 3 hero and a few casters, killed my 100 food chims and hero, and forced me to TP
No hu player has ever been able to do that to me.

Hu hero are much hard to kill, ill give you that.  But they can't kill jack shit, just have to staff the red chims, and keep on focusing the pala.  The orc hero will die if the orc is carless, but so will half the chims trying to kill them

[rygorych]

I agree that YZ is a much better player than me, I say it shamelessly.  But I still think that i'm a decent player.
His 3 hero and a few casters, killed my 100 food chims and hero, and forced me to TP
No hu player has ever been able to do that to me.

Link to rep and at which point battle occurs please.

[FML|Renaud]

S11 Finals
euhhh I don't remember the time,  but it's when both me and Starshaped took turn losing bunch of units in order to kill a few towers.

We only managed to kill most stuff once we got in together, SS fighitng for his lives against the heroes, while I was chimming building (and then I allowed him to rebuild like an idiot T_T)