Why there are a lack of Orc players achieving top results

[fetta_ook]

So, this is a spinoff to the earlier thread about the players that are currently on top level for each race. This is also something has been annoying me a lot.

The past seasons we have seen a declining trend for the success of the orcish horde in ffa and the experienced players talk themselves hard by reminiscing about the glory days of good orcs like Nline, Flash and Ludix. The way the scene has developed to what it is today, is more of a long term strategy game where the teaming goes back and forth which means that advantages are adjusted so that in the end all players have converging positions. This is great, this is one of the reasons why I love ffa. However, there is an exception to this, a monumental one. Orcs.

Nowadays it is consensus that if there is an Orc in the game: rush him out.
If, God forbid, the Orc manages to survive, he might get very strong hero combination of BM, SH and TC, a combination described as cheated by any non-Orc player. If the game gets to that point, then we have consensus #2: Orc heroes are cheated, lets team him until he is defeated. (Lex: last seasons semi final).

This means that it is literally impossible to win a high skilled game as Orc. To be able to win a game as Orc you have two alternatives: suck hard, but stash gold. This was what I did in season 21 semifinal at Deathrose vs SEKSI and DV. The only other viable strategy is to absolutely steamroll the map, which obviously is impossible in a skilled FML game.

The conclusion is that the playing Orc in FML is very, very disadvantageous, almost like a moment-22. Do you survive the first push: if no: "defeated"; if yes=> then "cheated heroes" => then "defeated". A complete dead end.

One last comment is that I can't stand players that usually are quite intelligent and rational like Maga, but when it comes to Orc, everything he has to say when he loses is: "cheated Orc race". The funny thing tho, is that you never hear him even mention the "cheatedness"of the UD early 80 push on Orc, because those you always win, 99% of the times and you won't have to even break sweat.

I'm not calling for any kind of petition "leave us orcs alone", this was rather just my thoughts on what has become a tedious fucking topic: "sigh, there are no good orcs delivering results in FML...."

[ZsSuperCumulo]

That's the price you must pay for drinking the blood of Mannoroth

[ZsSuperCumulo]

If you really wanna set yourself free, you must go back to your roots and start using far seer again!; just like the good old days of 05, 06 when orc was defined by farseer TC or farseer SH in solo vs every race :).

[Ugrilainen]

the lack of orcs is everywhere on the western scene, not only in ffa :)

[Slythe]

Orc is hard in FML because of the ridiculous late game imbaness of bm/tc/sh. No one enjoys getting orced by it (when you need to play soooo much better to win against it than the other way round). Human is also imba, but orc is prone to getting rushed, while human usually is not that easy to rush ( should done more often, anyway)

Four times an orc won the FML, three times it was offrace/random (sk2flash, who is undead, right? and Rain & F-l-y )
I cannot recall the races or players they were against but that maybe would play a role aswell (human usually does not fear orc, ud and elf often do)

The best orcs i played are still Daselend (was first in season and got rushed by htrt while daselend being surrounded), Nline, YZ , who had either super strong micro or great game sense and diplomatics. Others super strong orcs are Ostone and Ludix, who also both relied on excellent control and fighting, rather than manips/gamesense.

Imo, today´s orcs are either lacking great micro, very good game sense or
don´t think outside the box imo. But sometimes it was just bad luck or concidence aswell, they could not get more points.

If i were a orc player (and besides ud it´s maybe my favourite race to play)
I would pick another first hero than BM/DR, don´t go TC or SH, scout more and know when and from where danger is lurking.

[Jaod_]

Just our community not have orcs with win rete > 50% in solo ladder !!!!

fetta 1 x 1 get 3-6 ; 1-4 ; 4-10 stats ! )))))

Fetta - how you can be great if you not have great micro ???????!!!!!!!!

i respected you bro - and not wanna you mad on me - just think little about this

DEAR ORCS - train your micro and love this race pls

P.S. => Soso you was - right !

[Dovekie]

Nowadays it is consensus that if there is an Orc in the game: rush him out.
If, God forbid, the Orc manages to survive, he might get very strong hero combination of BM, SH and TC, a combination described as cheated by any non-Orc player. If the game gets to that point, then we have consensus #2: Orc heroes are cheated, lets team him until he is defeated. (Lex: last seasons semi final).

This means that it is literally impossible to win a high skilled game as Orc. To be able to win a game as Orc you have two alternatives: suck hard, but stash gold. This was what I did in season 21 semifinal at Deathrose vs SEKSI and DV. The only other viable strategy is to absolutely steamroll the map, which obviously is impossible in a skilled FML game.

Hey you now see things the way I do to some degree!  In an organized high skilled game, it just isn't fair.  Nelf/Undead do better than they should, worse players have a higher chance of winning than they should, and its impossible to win too many times in a row.  You are experiencing what follows after the domination of Orcs before you. 

[Peregrine]

The first time I agree with Fetta on anything

I've played Orc in every game this season so far, either by random or by choice. I got teamed/rushed out of game 1. I had a luck win in game 2, I was able to dominate in game 3, as a result I got teamed out by two FML champions in game 4 while they hoarded 20k.

So either frustrating over-teaming, luck wins, or complete domination. 

[zTsoso]

Teamed because of name - not race :-)

[fetta_ook]

See. The three eternal antagonists,  me, eshan and dovekie agreeing on something. We obviously must be on to something, something big...

[ZsSuperCumulo]

I was able to dominate in game 3, as a result I got teamed out by two FML champions in game 4 while they hoarded 20k.

So either frustrating over-teaming, luck wins, or complete domination.

rofl, you hoarded more than Wreck or me for that matter, and got teamed because you were on the lead -.-

[SteppinRazor]

It's only the past few seasons that orc has been lacking.  Few seasons ago, Ludix, Ostone, and Nline were tearing it up.  Before that, Lightweight, Persuade, even Seksi (when orc) were also dominate. 

A lot of the orcs today seem to prefer towering, hoarding, manip while most top orcs were more aggressive.  Orc is similar to undead in regards to the need for high level heroes to dominate, but opposite in the fact that they get exponentially stronger later in the game while undead gets weaker.  I would say that orc is the worst race in terms of early game macro, and over time players of other races have learned to exploit this better and better.  But even then, I would argue that any decent orc should be able to scout and macro well enough to put up resistance against most 80 food pushes. 

[Peregrine]

The problem isnt about whether orc is weak

Its about the fact that the orc is always the lightning rod for teaming. two non-orc players, even two champions like wreck and cumulo, who are sitting on 15k+ gold would rather completely team out an orc than fight each other even once

@cumulo - YOU were in the lead. I was broke with high level heroes from fighting two players.

[ZsSuperCumulo]

The problem isnt about whether orc is weak

Its about the fact that the orc is always the lightning rod for teaming. two non-orc players, even two champions like wreck and cumulo, who are sitting on 15k+ gold would rather completely team out an orc than fight each other even once

@cumulo - YOU were in the lead. I was broke with high level heroes from fighting two players.

lol was I? you were toming me while wreck sat at 80 chatting ...

[Ponty]

I agree with fetta first post, it's hard to win with Orc. But it has always been like this, people team each other until a point where everyone has about the same chance to win the game, there is nothing new about this.

 Let's be honest, todays orc suck, that's the main reason there are no orcs achieving anything  Just look at fetta getting demolished after 5min of game in all inhouses...