Lets talk FFA strategy

[Magadansky]

Stop saying FML favours manipulation. The people who won the most titles in the different seasons are not the most manipping. Just cut this argument already. To win in FML you need all components to be equally strong. Tell my anyone from the last champions who doesn't have either good decision making or great micro/macro, or both (mostly) and I will agree.

[zTsoso]

Maybe I was not clear. I was trying to say that manipulation and taking strategical advantages are very important in FML. Ofc. great decision making and micro/macro etc. matters also

[Magadansky]

To add to the discussion, the difference in strategies in FFarena (PlayFFA, bnet etc.) and FML is the diplomatic pressure. In the former, you can rambo your way into the win, have an easy walkthrough or you could die in a blademaster harass rush of some sort, thanks to the many inexperienced players.

In FML however, you stand by your name and when you play rambo with strong micro, it is a normal occurrence that people would team/manip vs you. Many don't like that, or don't know how to adapt. Dovekie, Soso and a few others are examples. Nevertheless, this pressure doesn't mean you cannot still win. Htrt, Yane and other solo players have adapted their style and were successful. They found a balance, developed ways to improve and became top tier. Refusing to improve your playstyle, usually leads to whining and blaming others for your losses. But its just a surrender to the diplomatic pressure and waving the white flag.

My 2 cents.

[zTsoso]

I think it is narrow minded to say that me and dovekie are waving the white flag and refusing to adapt our playstyles just because we have a different opinion on FML and prefer playing other types of games where playstyles are different.

I think Dovekie may have a point about some races having an advantage in FML (such as UD and elf) that are often underestimated the longer the game goes, and therefore teaming switches naturally to other targets. With human and orc this is not always the case. Human rely on archmage for mana but mass TP often gets you teamed to death. Orc are so strong in fights vs elves and UD in particular so they often get teamed, and it really does not matter how much you change your style unless you are willing to lose your fights on purpose or play "mediocre" as Dovekie would put it.

[Magadansky]

Yes, that's why Humans are so little represented in the FML Hall of Fame ;) Come on.

Also, I don't think anyone is purposedly playing mediocre. Again, list me a champion who didn't give his best at all times (except Cumulo who was toying a bit with his vast advantage in the last final but he still won with 7k in the bank). Yes, some of them have a bit worse micro than others, but decision-making and strategy are top notch among all.

And yes, you did wave the white flag in FML, which of course doesnt mean you should stop playing FFA. I mentioned it many times, if you want to play FML like you play in FFArena, play, but don't expect easy wins. 

[junkerzam]

of course you can win your 1v1 and gain from it, but depending on what players you are facing and by scouting the other 1v1, you can decide to either kill off your opponent quickly and then try to capitalize before a 2v1 can be coordinated. or you can drag out the 1v1, "hoarding" at 50/80 while killing off your opponent slowly but not killing him completely. or you can just win your first fights then back off and see how the other side is doing. the options are a-plenty.

however, what we often see from high micro players when they face a less skilled opponent is a quick toming and then proceeding to hoard gold for the upcoming 3 way. its like begging to get teamed.

[Tleilaxu]

FFA has an inherent random factor. The issue with bot games is that they amplify that factor, especially in full house games.
Let's say you decide (or are forced) to fight one of your neighbours while your other neighbour peaces with his other neighbour and then backstabs you while you are fighting.
It's something that is utterly beyond your control, as is getting a blademaster in your main or facing the occasional maphacker.
That is not to say that bot games can't be good places for practicing your macro, micro, creep routes, build orders etc., but they cannot be competitive in the same way that FML or other organized tournaments are.

I think many dominating players ultimate problem is that they cannot deal with having that privilege taken away from them. They believe that the evil low skilled manipulating teamers are taking away their right to win, when in reality it is about equalizing the game, something which absolutely should happen in every FFA.

[ZsSuperCumulo]

I think Doveki has a certain distain for FML games, but then again, like someone mentioned, we really haven´t seen him play that much; so he may actually be as good of a player as some of us. Personally, I think FML games are more intersting than ladder ones, and that´s because in FML you have players who are proximately on the same level and get to face each other for the oportunity to advance to the next round and maybe if they are good enough, get their name on the wall. In order to do this you need a set of skills that zTsoso explained very well;furthermore, you also develop a sense of commradeship by scheduling, talking in the skype group, watching streams, commentating on replays, etc. Some of these factos are lacking in PlayFFArena and that´s because at least to me , they are all strangers and to be honest it feels different, and some games are very easy to win while others are very tedious and makes me no wanna go through that again.
In FML, I presonally feel like I´ve made a commitment to play all rounds, enjoy the games and see how I match up with my fellow FFA players. Ofc if everything goes well, or "ok" at least then I get a chance to play with the remaining best in the finals; this is what I feel is very different from PlayFFArena, sure PlayFFArena is fun and you can find it challenging sometimes, or very difficult because u get attacked by 3 nobodies with different armies, but personally I´d pick FML over PlayFFArena in a heartbeat.

[Valefort]

For me there is not much difference between an FML game and some bot games where players are actually communicating and teaming, the only difference is that identities are completely known in FML but it can be even more misleading than anonymous games as players can change their style.

Communicating is as much part of an FFA game as controlling units is. Also any hierarchy on the means of winning a game, like saying winning with micro instead of manipulation is better, is very relative and ultimately meaningless as far as winning goes. Good FFA players have to be good at every aspect of ffa to succeed consistently, personal preferences of players like not chatting is like a player being bad at micro : a weakness to take advantage of.

[DV-]

[Dovekie]

About people saying "ffarena games are like a stomp, where you can be a tiger and just smash face". That is the plan that never happens—that's what makes it fun. I mean, yeah, some games you do, but many games it doesn't work, because there is a blade master harassing your expo while some guy rushes you from the other side, all meanwhile there is a strong player on the other side of the map hoarding, AND playing a better late game race. So now you need to, 1. defend and silence your corner. 2. Get at least enough mines to be able to compete. 3. Level your heroes higher than the hoarder so you can have a chance in the 1v1. 4. Have a long, intense 1v1 when the time comes, that is the epitome of micro/multiasking/knowledge/positioning/decision-making, etc.  It's simply very fun, and requires a lot of the aforementioned skill, and will certainly be decided almost solely on those things.

Second, it is true. DV, Junker, Qwest, Cumulo and Noexxx are all stronger players than you

In solo FFA? I don't think you know me very well. I go even with Cumulo/DV, (cum plays a better race, dv plays a worse one, so take that into account, whatever that means), and I would frequently beat Qwest/Noexxx (frequently).  I don't know Junker tbh.  In fact, the only players I really had trouble with (in more recent times) are good Orcs like Ostone, and also Seksi.  I would trade evenly with even htrt in late human mirror, and have replays to prove it, beating him with UD even in legit 1v1s.  As far as solo, I'm not bad. On w3arena I have an acc thats ~50-35, not the best but I'm not a pushover. I beat yane in legit 1v1, and generally do pretty well.  None of these players "wreck" me.

[FML|Mage]

I'm loving the conversation, some great points being brought up all over.

I'll just chip in my two cents and vouch for Dovekie in FFA.  I actually think his skills lie more in 100 v 100 fights than they do in a solo match. 

That being said I still disagree with a lot of his points haha.

[Peregrine]

Dovekie, the games you describe are fun - but the overwhelming number of times, you are still the favorite

You are usually the best player in those games and its a test to see if you can handle all the different stuff thrown your way, the noobs, the harrass, the 1 other good player, and still succeed

The difference is in FML, we are all those players in FFArena, but in FML we face our equals. Its like taking the best basketball player from each street court or college in the country and putting them against each other - in the NBA.

Youre like the guy who prefers street games cause thats where you dominate and feel the greatest sense of pleasure

[ZsSuperCumulo]

I think it would be nice to see Doveki compete in FML. If I were to match him against the current players, I'd say he can give us a tough time. Moreover, just like Eshan mentioned, perhaps Doveki prefers street fights rather than stepping in the ring :D, but I'm curious as to why not step in the ring with the other heave weights :D

[Seksi]

Cool thread, I'll respond more later but good points brought up by many of you.

One note:  The best FFA experience in my opinion, is Ladder when it is competitive and filled with strong players.  A lot of the arguments in this thread for FML or against ladder is assuming ladder is full of noobs with scattered skilled players.

When Ladder is actively played by the majority of skilled FFA players then it becomes the greatest form of FFA, in my opinion.  It combines every element of skill - micro, macro, manipulation, decision making, army composition, etc. 

All of these things are in FML, but the element of randomness is largely missing in FML type, structured games.  This randomness is a great part of FFA - where anything can happen - sometimes you might have to fight your way out of an early, unconventional 1v1, or withstand lots of action early.  The satisfaction and pure epicness of some victories can be unmatched. 

In structured FFA, often times the player who played the best early is actually hurt (instead of rewarded) as the game goes on.  This is what Dovekie was referring to.  Of course there are different ways to play, but structured FFA games have a greater emphasis on manipulation and diplomacy then ladder. 

The unwritten rules of peace and not creep jacking are not always enforced in ladder, leaving a truer sense of "Free for All".  The scales of balance are always shifting, maybe you are a lesser skilled player but this game get a fortunate spawn, can expand more freely and shine.  Where as the other player that would normally tome you has a tougher early game thus balancing the scales. 

I'm not knocking FML either, the structured formula of high level FFA is awesome in its own sense.  We've had a long, successful history of FML and it continues to be great.

With that being said - the more active the skilled FFA players are on the ladder, the more competitive it will be, creating a platform for FFA that combines every element of the game type at a high level.  A skilled, active, and competitive ladder (with anonymous names, a random variety of maps and circumstances, with a pool of hundreds-to-thousands of unique players) is the ultimate form of FFA.