DasElend & DarknessCalls (and y.zenchenko)

[rygorych]

I thought I'll put all of top orc abusers into a single post to make this easier.

OK so we know that while orc is not the top race to win any given FFA, it is quite cheesy/op in terms of single battles. Often times orcs are rushed out/teamed against for this particular reason. The race op synergies + brutal micro of the top players = pretty much nobody stands a chance in an even battle.

So, here are the 2 scenarios.

1. You are in the top right corner position near Darkness on Market Square. He is sandwiched with 2 other players beneath him.
You don't need to scout to know that he will go DR+hh, grab a quick expo and then mass his usual cheese.
You don't need to scout to know that YOU are darkness's #1 target to break out of sandwich.
You use whatever race you use. What do you do?

2. You are sandwiched on Twilight. DasElend lucked into the best position across the map from you, all alone. His typical play is fast wyverns, creep as much as possible, gear up his BM and then dominate vs anyone.
You use whatever race you use. What do you do?


Me:
1. Any race -creep as much as possible, mass towers and fast 100. Camp base or expos - wherever he goes. Yell at other players to hit him before he gets lvl 7 DR from toming me. Pray. Seriously, I don't want to spawn near a sandwiched Darkness. I will go into a zakazulu mode and just scream at everyone until they hit darkness or kill me so I finally shut up.

2. Try and manip others into realizing that Das is all alone and hoarding 40k If they don't, screw it, throw everything at him. If they hit me or each other in the mean time, they are too dumb to win anyways. 3v1 rice style and not let him rebuild, ever. Top player in lucky position = auto team imo. Try not to get lucky next time.


So, TLDR, the strat is this:
1. camp to avoid feeding them high heroes.
2. never fight them in a fair battle because you just cant beat something so imba
3. hardcore team
4. if they cry about being teamed, point them to numerous replays where they've won vs team, so they should probably stfu
5. if it comes to the point where the orcs are fed+mass gold, go into zaka zulu mode and all out harassment rage and pray that the remaining players have half a brain to do the same


Anyone got good replays to watch involving top orcs? Especially where they get actually beaten?

[FML|Renaud]

1.
this is the perfect situation to beat a good orc player.  They all have a few minutes (1-2) at about the 12 minute mark, where they are super vulnerable, just before they get the burrow reinforcement upgrade, because they are usually very low on wood, have burrows that dies in seconds to gryph, almost no hero advantage.  I try to hit him in that small window.  I usually go mk/pala on market, so nuking the DR should be no problem.  (if i'm elf, same strat with chims but slightly slower, and with breath upgrade)

2.
This is hard, because you can't rush him :(  I would probably expo crossmap, and hoard and buy as much wands of illusions (4 max).  I go 100 on the first who hit me, and then assuming dase is winning, we would team him.  There are two possible tactics when fighting him,
-use 3 illusion per battle to "take out" 3-6 bats (illusion should be mixed in the army so he won't know what is what) to slowly beat him with gold and teaming
-use the 12 illusion in one battle, wait till he bats you, then bring you 12 real Gryph (or chims) and chase him to his main, he probably won't have time to remake a huge amount of bats, and when there are only a few, it's possible to counter them with healing

Once in the orc's main, chances are he did a deathstar (towers all around his fortress), if that's the case, i usually try to take out the beastiary (unless i already killed all his empty expo around the map, in that case i try to kill his burrow first)

[rygorych]

Good tips about that "window" on orc vulnerability and wow, illusion wands, in all honesty I've never though about those before on a market map like twilight.

Do you have any good reps which clearly show that "window of opportunity"?

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

If I have someone sharing my corner on Market Square I very rarely go DR, you're too vulnerable to the early rush/tower rush, just a heads up but probably something you have never seen 

But yeah a quick rush at a good time is devastating to any orc, whether surrounded or not. Although an orc that grabs only one expansion as opposed to two can get developed a bit faster, at the cost of a less productive economy later. Wood is the #1 obstacle, which is obviously why most solo orcs play the way they do.

never fight them in a fair battle because you just cant beat something so imba

Ahhh that's just not true, it can be beaten although it is difficult, see HTRT for example, he beat me in several battles during our deathrose game. Actually I believe human is the strongest opponent for orc if played correctly, probably the most devastating. Night elf can be strong if you outresource their bats with good chim management. Undead just need to pray :)

[rygorych]

Can you please link games where a 80 or 100 orc is beaten on even terms (no heavy hero lvl advantage, no hard counter).

I'm not sure what you mean by chim management as NE vs bats. Why would you use bats on chims? Bats are for hippo/dott only. Wyverns> chims.

[Slythe]

those are very specific gamesituation which cannot be answered properly in a short way. need to know all other races, early game development etc etc, imo.

in the end u won´t be able to win a *fair battle * against an orc-user who is quite evenly skilled/experienced than urself, unless he makes too many mistakes... or it is ur birthday.

[DarKNeSSCaLLs]

Can you please link games where a 80 or 100 orc is beaten on even terms (no heavy hero lvl advantage, no hard counter).

I'm not sure what you mean by chim management as NE vs bats. Why would you use bats on chims? Bats are for hippo/dott only. Wyverns> chims.

Check out my replay vs HTRT on Deathrose... round 2 of last season.

Bats/wyvs it generally depends, wyvs are easily counterable even with batting their hippos, it's usually best to stick with pure bat, especially if they have a panda. Prot scroll + spreading out/staffing chims is what I mean by good management.

[Rebuke[SkyNet]]

orc is only hard when they tome somoene

[FML|Renaud]

Well, bats pretty much gives the option to trade gold for level (while also destroying the other player's gold!)  So chances are they will easily access high level if they have gold

[FML|Renaud]

moved the Orcs thread to this section, had some useful stuff, and lots of trolling by rsm

[rsm]

trolling? I've posted about 4 times ever on the site, must be somebody on my account, I have no need to troll players who are 50% on battle net.

[FML|Renaud]

For the record I was trolling, Undead is terrible in every game type. I thought it was obvious the second I said orc wasn't broken.

PWNED

[SteppinRazor]

Anyone with elf ever try using DR/Panda/PL vs orc?  I never tried it but thinking about it, and Haze+bof with howl+rain of fire + silence seems like it would be ownage...ofc thats if you can not get hexastomped to death first

[rygorych]

There is no magic solution to beat orc. You either outplay them (you can't, if you face top orcs like yz, dase, darkness, etc). Or you outteam them (what I do). Or you outgold them (e.g. force them to mass bats). Your heroes won't matter all that much, but I think DR/Panda/potm (after 6) or DR/Panda/Warden (under 6) are best in a straight fight. Pitlord is nice on paper, but other combos are just much better overall.

[FML|Renaud]

If you do go Dr/Pb/Pl, the good news is that you can go almost pure chim, and you should be able to beat wyvs with a minimal amount of hippos (and chim have a higher chance of survive vs bats.  And if you have dr, you might be able to keep your dots alive long enough to cyclone his heroes while you a move the rest

Din't work so well most of the times i tried it though, not sure why, maibe because the bats would still kill all the chims?

You're probably better off with w/e heroes, and just surprise his main with 100 chim, and kill all building before he can break 50