Discussion thread regarding statement about no points for not winning and cheese

[Cheerio]

yo mr. Rygorych,
You wrote in the feedback thread:

What I liked:

FFA is alive thanks to FML and Ugri's ladder. Thanks to all of you for continuing to keep it alive, and become even bigger than before. Glad to see more players join.

Also, elves are winning, thank god. I'm still afraid one of the randoms in the finals will go the typical am mk pal crap.


What I didn't like:

Same as every other season. I've said it many times, and will say it again, FFA should be played for the win, not for points. There should be no points given except for winning. Maybe for top score you can give 1 point. 10/10/5 system is really detrimental to idea of ffa where it's all about last man standing. Everyone should be playing for the win, not points. Mentality of "yeah it's ok I'll suicide this guy, and get at least 10 points, or if I'm lucky still pull off a win" should be gone. It's really against the spirit. But just IMO, I'm sure most people would disagree.

Outside of elves, everyone continues to ignore the problem of cheese. It's boring as hell to watch and absolutely disgusting how people go for personal problems vs each other instead of teaming the cheesers first. Am / mk / pal or bm / sh/ tc in game ===> team them out. Shit's way too stupidly op and makes games insanely boring.

Season 18:

No real suggestions, I think the format is good.

I must admit that I believe you to be somewhat intelligent, and that I really like your idea of only giving points to the winner - forcing people to do what it takes to win.

After you state this you argue that people should just stop cheesing (hero-wise), because it is too strong and will just get the person who does it teamed.

I cannot make this into a valid point. I truly believe that the idea of only giving points to the winner would make for more interesting games, but when you only get points for winning, I don't understand how you can say that people should choose sub-par heroes, when you also agree they are better, while trying to win?

I also agree that playing only to try and win would be better in most cases (the later the tourney gets, the more chance there is that someone will suicide the one who is winning if this person is a rival, but in the first rounds atleast), but I also want to see people perfect what they are doing - I want to see nice macro-, micro-, general management, and then you want to "limit" the cheese?

To me it seems like an excuse for wanting the win to be determined by who has the best ffa-sense (only), because that person would know who's stronger with what hero-comp etc., and be able to judge each person individually and compare them to the other players in the game, but that would make games less dependant on skill (with skill I mean things you can train against bots).

These questions are not to spite you, but because I really liked the idea you proposed about only winner gets points (in some situations), and I don't know if you're just trolling with the entire thing when you (in my mind) afterwards make a counter-arguement and propose that aswell. So if you are not trolling, could you please explain to me how you see these two things simultaniously happen?

p.s. sorry for the wall of text and if some english terms aren't used correctly

[Persuade]

The point rework is something we are looking into, however there is a big concern with it that I think might take people some time adjusting to.  People most of the time want to avoid the dreaded 4th place/5 points, and sometimes this actually encourages rushing, as to catch someone off guard and ensure that you yourself don't get 4th.

If we decided to change it so only the winner gets points, it might encourage more people to play passive and hoard more greedily, since they might not want to risk breaking too early because they know there is no difference between 4th and 2nd.

Everything has promise to look good on paper, and this is exception.  If we are able to find a good point breakdown so that this method actually works, we are more than willing to try it out.

[Ugrilainen]

should try rework a cup mode with winner and loser bracket to check if thats maybe possible

[FML|Mog]

I didn't think this through for super long, but what if the point breakdown was 10 for 3rd/4th, 15 for 2nd, and 25 for 1st? That way, the long passive 3 ways will be more interesting, because 2nd and 3rd don't get the same points, and the person who dies first won't try to stick around and get 3rd for point purposes, which they sometimes do in the current system, even when they know they don't have any hope of winning. Also, someone playing a more aggressive style may benefit more than someone playing passive, even if the aggressive person dies first they may be rewarded with a higher score and more points.

Just throwing out some thoughts. I'm sure there are some negatives I haven't thought of yet, but it sounded good in my head :)

[Ugrilainen]

well in that case if 1st is dominant, 2nd will jump onto 3rd throat to be sure to get 5 more points

[rygorych]

Cheerio, in regards to cheese, I am basically saying that shit like am mk pal or bm sh tc needs to be teamed and punished hard. But people continue to ignore it, then lose to it and wonder why.

[Meeds]

Cheerio, in regards to cheese, I am basically saying that shit like am mk pal or bm sh tc needs to be teamed and punished hard. But people continue to ignore it, then lose to it and wonder why.

You know Ebo, most your points are usually correct, but really sometimes you speak like if you know everything about FFA and Warcraft. Relax a little bit ^^ ! It is a game, shits happen.

[FML|Mog]

well in that case if 1st is dominant, 2nd will jump onto 3rd throat to be sure to get 5 more points

That's true :(

[SteppinRazor]

Cheerio, in regards to cheese, I am basically saying that shit like am mk pal or bm sh tc needs to be teamed and punished hard. But people continue to ignore it, then lose to it and wonder why.

Well everyone but mog uses "cheese" combos.

One reason that no one is hardcore teaming orcs and humans is that there aren't as many good orc/hu players around.  Ludix is emerging as a beastly orc player though, and he has been teamed hard in his last few games.  No good human players right now.  Wreck is playing elf, and LW and humi are banned/inactive

[rygorych]

yeah this season was better, less orc/hu cheesers

[Searcher_FF]

yeah this season was better, less orc/hu cheesers

yea we need MOAR hoarding elves. XD

[Cheerio]

@Rygorych

I completely understand that you believe it to be boring/too good and should be teamed, but I can't make it fit together with your other (and in my opinion much more valid point) about wanting to play for the win and not play for an adequate amount of points.

@Pers

I had not thought about that point, and I do agree it is very likely that people will play more passively in the early phases of the game - clear disadvantage.
It also makes it much easier to get rid of a person, because they are simply a more valuable target (they got more points), and early teaming will probably happen more often.

The major arguement that it is a good idea aspires from the idea that after the first person is knocked out, you still get enough points from becoming second or third to actually be "satisfied", and this would not happen if you didn't get points for anything but first.

I find the latter arguement to have a lot of significance, but I am also not a player and don't have to play hoarding games, but can x8 or skip (if it's a shoutcast). My main problem with the current situation is that it rewards 2nd and 3rd place too greatly.

[rygorych]

@Rygorych

I completely understand that you believe it to be boring/too good and should be teamed, but I can't make it fit together with your other (and in my opinion much more valid point) about wanting to play for the win and not play for an adequate amount of points.

Teaming cheesers is playing for the win. People are soooo delusional about being able to beat an am mk pal human or dr sh tc orc in the endgame (past 6/6/6)

[MattiasG]

About the anti-cheese here:


If you are going to disallow certain combo's and stuff, that would completely screw this game up. If some douchebag wants to mass bat your base, he should be able to do that. (Coming from a guy who gets really angry about such things! :D)

If someone goes the best possible combo for his race, this doesn't mean he must be teamed. It's just common sense you try the best things to prevail!

BM/SH/TC is kinda imba, yes, but good enough players can handle this. (Look at maga, how he mastered UD so well vs any race.)