Some thoughts on maps for S20

[Nooblex]

Just wanted to get out some thoughts on different map features and what makes them good for the different races. Might help a little with map selection for season 20.

Things that help Orc:
-Ability to tome/item creep
-Fountains of mana
-Marketplaces and big item drops like CoK and claws +12.
-Natural expansions
-Big, difficult creep camps and high number of creeps
-Shredders
-Shops

Things that help NE:
-Natural expansions and fewer up-for-grabs creeps
-Many expansions with easy creeps
-Lack of map randomness (ei not being surrounded on Mur'gul)
-Fountains of health
-Lack of mana fountains
-Lack of shreders
-Shops
-Tavern
-Lack of marketplaces (if there are orcs)
-Ground to build AoWs on, especially near expansions

Things that help HU
-Shredders
-Safe, non-communal creeps
-Lack of tavern
-Lack of purge creeps
-Tomes of Power
-Health fountains
-Mana fountains (in games where not getting AM is viable)
-Shops


Things that help UD
-Lack of shops
-Lack of natural expansions
-Lots of creeps
-Lack of marketplaces and claw/stats item drops
-Mana fountains
-Health fountains
-Lots of communal creep camps
-Relatively few expansions

Anyway, I'm sure some people will want to argue a few of these points and that's fine. The idea though is just to give some attention to making a balanced map pool between races. That doesn't necessarily mean giving certain races huge advantages and disadvantages (like having a no-tavern map or a no shop map) but rather finding a mix of all around "good" maps, that give varying small advantages to different races.

Even some very good maps are pretty biased. 4 player deadlock is extremely good for NE because there are healing wards, no shredders, lots of expansions and relatively few creeps and big items. Deathrose is extremely biased toward Orc, because the tome creeping routes are ridiculous and most of the items are less useful to other races (no amulet of spell shield, endurance aura, etc). Market is bad for NE because getting someone in your corner is a huge setback, expos are hard and limited, there's a mana fountain and there's enough creeps for players to creep ~5/5/3 or so.

So for tl;dr, for season 20 lets try to find a mix of maps that benefit all different races. And as we introduce custom maps, think about which races they benefit, and perhaps find ways to even them out if they're too biased.

Cheers!

[FML|red7z7]

Thanks for the detailed post. Since im likely the one doing the most mapmaking/editing at the moment, mind if I ask some questions for clarification?

-Why do natural expansions benefit orc? Why do they benefit NE? Why is natural expo not listed as a benefit for HU? (I would expect it to be since militia creeping.) And why does lack of natural expo benefit UD?

-Why does NE benefit from a lack of creeps?

-Why does a fountain of health benefit a NE while a fountain of mana does not?

-Why does NE benefit from a lack of shredders?

-Why does HU benefit from safe non-communal creeps, and why isn't that listed for any other race?

Thanks

[Seksi]

I can try to answer these and maybe add some of my own info

Expansions:

I don't think having natural expansions or not give a distinct advantage or disadvantage to any one race.  If anything, Elf needs an early natural expansion more then other races.  Undead is good without an expansion with 50 food fiends with a fast tier 3 tech (See: Mur'gul).  Same concept can be applied to Human or Orc though (tier 3 gryphon tech, fast tech wyverns). 

More important in my opinion is the number of expansions.  More mines = better for Elf, generally.  (See: Gold rush or Twilight vs Market).  Elf can quickly expand and manage multiple mines early and often.  On maps like Market Elf has a disadvantage because the mines are numbered making it difficult to use their economic advantage over other races (secured expansions, fastest building expansions, easiest expansions to create).  Fewer mines also benefit Undead as he pointed out - reason being is you are able to understand and control the gold your opponents has and UD is strong at 80 food without needing many mines.  If the game goes long or has too many mines UD is at a severe disadvantage when the gold counts get over 15k. 

I agree with most of everything Nooblex brought up.  NE benefits from a lack of creeps mainly because other races need creeps and early hero levels more.  On maps like Deadlock you can only get 4/2/1 or so, making early 80+ food chippo very strong.  Other races rely on higher level heroes to battle chippo (see Orc or Undead) where elf can be very powerful just with Chims and Hippos and basic heroes.  Level 3 panda or level 1 kotg are still very effective, unlike low level heroes of other races. 

Fountain of health can benefit any race, but I can see his point in that you can save your moon wells and many times you will have a full red/yellow army when you TP.  Though, I don't see this is a sure advantage for any specific race. 

Mana fountain is a sure advantage for 2 races.  Orc and Undead benefit from mana fountains big time.  Being able to restore Orc casters to full mana or UD heroes to full mana is a major advantage.  Human doesn't need it as much (Brilliance, doesn't rely on incredible casters mana always or mass spamming of skills with UD) and ELf hardly at all (Panda is the only hero needing mana and wells solve). 

NE benefits from lack of shredders simply because other races require much more wood to tech (Orc and Human).  Ne can make a number of wisps and fully tech and upgrade without any trouble, if you don't have a shredder as Orc or Human you will be without a doubt slower in your tech and rise to power.  Elf always has a window of time to jump on Orcs or Humans early - but an even bigger window on maps without shredders. 

As for safe creeps, human can be vulnerable early.  If a human gets creep jacked and loses their level 1 MK for example it's tough for them to compete in hero levels, it is vital to a human's success to either creep or be aggressive early to gain those crucial hero levels (at least 5/4/3).  Once you have levels, human is much stronger (similar to UD).  Orc and Elf don't NEED those levels as bad as they can still perform well in fights and gain levels (see: Bats, Chippo) in armies that don't require high level heroes. 

Other points he mentioned make sense too.  Though any good human knows how to avoid getting his elemental purged ;)

[ins]

I have some thoughts on some other aspects of maps:

Wide open spaces tend to favor ground armies that want a lot of real estate to move around freely, especially in situations where the player is trying to split against AoE.  However, in ground vs ground wars, a good choke point can really help an army avoid flanks by melee units.  For example, a Necrowagon army has a better shot of dealing with Orc Ground in a tight space where the tauren aren't going to get around to the back and hit the casters/wagons; the skellies all can just go to one face of the army to tank, and the wagons get free reign to siege AoE onto opposing zergs/casters.

When air units get involved, it's much easier for Chims or Gryphons (for example) to flank over terrain against a heavy ground army while they're in a choke point.  This also goes for Gargs doing hit-and-run moves to whittle down a force gradually.

In my opinion, a well-conceived map has both open spaces and choke points so that different types of armies each have good and bad places to fight.  This rewards good tactics and punishes lazy ones.

[Lightweight]

Pls dont listen to seksi about maps he tries to get an advantage with his rdm abuse.

[Nooblex]

Thanks for the detailed post. Since im likely the one doing the most mapmaking/editing at the moment, mind if I ask some questions for clarification?

-Why do natural expansions benefit orc? Why do they benefit NE? Why is natural expo not listed as a benefit for HU? (I would expect it to be since militia creeping.) And why does lack of natural expo benefit UD?

Basically NE and HU really don't want to fight early (unless rushing someone out). HU can usually expand and safely tower it whether they're natural or not, but yes, having them safely out of the way is good. NE, however, often gets expos knocked down by a random creep party if they're not natural and it's a big setback. It rarely matters for Orc because they're teching anyway and will get expo at t2. UD benefits from contested creeps because no one can really fight DK/fiends early with normal FFA builds.

-Why does NE benefit from a lack of creeps?

Like seksi said, chippo is brutally strong if other races have 3/2 or something. It's frustrating as hell to play NE, however, when other races get 5/4/3 just from creeping.

-Why does a fountain of health benefit a NE while a fountain of mana does not?

Panda is basically the only NE hero that really needs mana, and he can fill up with a well or two. It's not that fountain of mana is bad for NE, but it's so good for other races that it's a disadvantage. Having an SH/TC or DK/Lich/DL with full mana all the time is a big problem for NE.

-Why does NE benefit from a lack of shredders?

Orc and HU especially benefit hugely from shredders. NE last the fewest wood problems and the most useful workers, so they benefit by other races not benefiting.

-Why does HU benefit from safe non-communal creeps, and why isn't that listed for any other race?

Because HU doesn't want to fight early (same with NE). Orcs love running into you with 3/1 BM/SH and 4 wyverns and DK fiends is the same. It's free experience and maybe a hero kill.

[DV-]

JESUS U GUYS ALREADY HAVE UR GRAPHOMANIAC THREAD AT PLAYFFA STOP IT