Civil discussion of Race power in FFA

[darkermirror]

it happened with me vs lw or vs seksi on crucible half a week or so ago
u dont pay attention and orc can micro and suddenly 8 chims dont help. he stomps before u entangle. then hexes ur staff hero while killing ur other hero then kills the rest.
or he hexastomps and focuses chims
even with 8 chims u absolutedly need dryaed and talon dryad vs hex talon vs bm and then hope talon not hit by stomp. it is so difficult i tell you.

[Nooblex]

I don't understand the focus on hero combos. Yes BM/TC/SH and AM/MK/PL are stronger than UD and NE combos, but that doesn't mean they'd be useful for UD or NE. There's no point in looking at individual hero combos from a balance perspective. Balance is race vs race, given all variables.

That being said, I don't think any once race is universally strongest. The map, races in the game, and skill level makes a huge difference in the power of any particular race.

Tenatively, however, I'd say something like this, assuming 4 good players:

Orc > NE and UD, and < HU
HU = UD, NE and > Orc
NE = HU and UD and < Orc
UD = NE and HU, < Orc

Again, this varies based on the map, skill level, positions, and hero combos chosen. I'm sure many people will disagree with some of this, but I'll explain why this is my opinion on racial balance in FFA.

Orc > NE - I don't think Blizzard concieved bats with the idea of unlimited gold and 100 food armies in mind. Assuming equal skill, bats vs air tends to even out in gold, but give the orc bigger heroes.

Orc > UD - I think the Dase vs Yane game posted on the replay pack is a good illustration of this, because you get to see 45k worth of armies thrown at each other. Orc wins almost every single one, despite Yane being a pro solo player.

Orc < HU - There will probably be some disagreement here, but I think this is in HU's favor. Priests make bats impractical, and good adaptation counter with hawks, tanks and gyros can handle wyverns. With Mass TP/Blizzard, Haze/Bof or Acid/Transmute, I think HU has the advantage here.

NE = UD - As Dase said, bad UD's get trashed by bad NEs, but at a high level of play, good use of hit-and-run nukes, garg micro, destroyers and stone form makes this matchup pretty even.

NE = HU - Again, this is a skill thing. NE's who can't play vs tanks get trashed by HU. However, NE's who use Dotts instead of hippos, a combo that gets DH or Panda leveled quickly, use scrolls, and generally avoid straight fights before starfall or tranq - they can handle HU just fine.

HU = UD - Hero levels are a huge deal here, so despite the fact that I think this matchup is relatively even, you rarely see even games. If the UD has big heroes, HU doesn't stand much of a chance vs the nuke. The opposite, however, is also true: Mass TP, Transmute or banish/bolt/light prevents hit and runs, and puts the game in HU's favor.

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Like I said before, maps play a huge roll too.

Single choke = extremely beneficial for NE.
Markets = extremely beneficial for Orc
Big creeps = great for HU, Orc and UD, terrible for NE
Large open maps = great for UD, Orc and mass tp HU, bad for NE
Lots of expos = great for NE, not much benefit to other races
Shredder = hugely beneficial for HU and Orc, helpful for UD, basically irrelevant for NE.

That being said, here's what I'd say for picking finals maps:

Harvest - Something for every race and starting positions don't fuck you. Best imo.
Twilight - markets, shredders, size, creeps and lack of chokes put this in favor for Orc and HU, but it's a really good overall map.
Market - Really orc and HU biased. Especially orc.
Goldrush - Relatively balanced, but makes for extremely long games.

Whew.

[Wrecktify]

You people are all gay, especially Ebony, with the spamming of this garbage. 

Nelf heroes suck they lack synergy.  In FFA they are about either A) pumping up your chims (POTM), extending your AA's life (bof/haze) or stunning for a chim focus fire (kotg).  Since they cant fight, need high levels, and suck, I give them a 5.

Undead heroes have synergy and can owndizzle but need good levels (5/5/3 id say.)  Fortunately they can get this cause Fiends rewl at creeping.  Undead also is a good rush race.  Since this crap thread is only counting three good creeping maps (for undead I mean) Ill give them an 8.

Orc heroes and human heroes are basically a push at 10.  Archmage blows below 6,  mk and pally below 5.  Fortunately they have good creepign so getting like 5/4/3 on these maps is easy.  Orc has decent creeping but as renaud already pointed out can abuse bats for easy XP.  Thats why they get a 10.

Done.

[rygorych]

You people are all gay, especially Ebony, with the spamming of this garbage. 

Nelf heroes suck they lack synergy.  In FFA they are about either A) pumping up your chims (POTM), extending your AA's life (bof/haze) or stunning for a chim focus fire (kotg).  Since they cant fight, need high levels, and suck, I give them a 5.

Undead heroes have synergy and can owndizzle but need good levels (5/5/3 id say.)  Fortunately they can get this cause Fiends rewl at creeping.  Undead also is a good rush race.  Since this crap thread is only counting three good creeping maps (for undead I mean) Ill give them an 8.

Orc heroes and human heroes are basically a push at 10.  Archmage blows below 6,  mk and pally below 5.  Fortunately they have good creepign so getting like 5/4/3 on these maps is easy.  Orc has decent creeping but as renaud already pointed out can abuse bats for easy XP.  Thats why they get a 10.

Done.

All fair statements, and thanks for your input, except I'm not gay, I'm actually quite hetero, though open to MMFF or MMF experimentation.

[rygorych]

Good post as well, thanks for your input Nooblex, I pretty much agree with all your points except that Shredder benefits HU. I think HU doesn't want shredder maps because shredder benefits Orc more, and therefore HU loses their woodcutting research advantage, which they would have on non shredder maps.

[Beljone]

In terms of race match ups you're talking about maps? Maps don't matter for shit in FFA. Here are some other thoughts I have on the little things as well..

Single choke = Maybe beneficial for some races, since I can see it can be kind of dangerous in some situations
Markets = Universal. There's something in there for everyone.
Big creeps = Not depending on the race, but depending on the units you choose to go
Large open maps = Great for any fast moving race.

I thought it was widely known that asians were the best race in FFA.

If I had to rank any racial combinations it would be
In terms of mother\father\possible distant relativity

10 - Asian/Asian/Asian
9 - Asian/Asian White
4.5 - Asian/White/Asian
4.5 - White/Asian/Asian
3 - White/White/Asian
3 - Asian/Black/Asian
2 - Asian/Black/White

Everything else is <1

I have come up with some pure Africans that play warcraft well though. But I'm sure that their grand grand ancestors were Asian of some sorts.

[Nooblex]

Good post as well, thanks for your input Nooblex, I pretty much agree with all your points except that Shredder benefits HU. I think HU doesn't want shredder maps because shredder benefits Orc more, and therefore HU loses their woodcutting research advantage, which they would have on non shredder maps.

I think HU benefits more because they have such an insane need for lumber. HU needs all 4 attack/armor upgrades while orc needs 3, sometimes 2, and they need virtually all units and most of their tech. Orc can ignore raider upgrades, HH upgrades, grunt upgrades, spiked upgrades, demolisher upgrades, and so on.

More than anything though, shredders allow HU to mass expand quickly and let them power build several expansions.