Undead strategy guides?

[CoupDeGrace]

Pretty much i started playng again warcraft 3 after a loong pause and this time decided to try ffa instead of solo i play in w3arena ffa server.I like to play undead and so here i am looking for some improvements for my strat and my strat is something in those lines

i usually play with furst hero dread lord (i think fast lvl 6 is better for him instead of dk or mb thats wrong ?

i try to get fast expand DK 2nd and lich 3rd hero , for my army i go something like fiends +3 abo+2 statues for regen+1 wyrm + 2x banshee for anti-magic shield it works fine but sometimes its just not enough so i am welcome to any ideas what else can UD do espceally vs orcs... thats probably hardest fight:)

also links to UD ffa guides are welcome

[Dovekie]

Dread Lord first works but DK provides better early game in every way imaginable, which tips the scale I think.  The dread lord is an investment hero for the Undead, because he provides very little when he comes out—but thats okay, Undead is very strong at this point in the game, and can get the DL levels through the power of mass Undead Air and Coil/Nova/Unholy.  But it works fine. One of the main reason I don't like it is honestly F1, F2, F3 order.

Late game Undead is usually something like
vs Undead and Elf: Mass garg + 1 frost + 1 destroyer
vs Orc and Human: Mass Frost + Destroyer + some gargs or fiends or wagons depending on circumstances (tanks, hero levels)

No reason to get abombs or casters unless the situation requires it.  Better off with ghouls than you are with the garbage-can unit abomination.

[junkerzam]

valid points from dovekie. i used to go DL first without expection but sadly i have finally faced the fact that it is rarely to your advantage. i'd say the only scenario that you could argue for the DL being a better choice is if you go a fast garg build (no crypts) and the creeps are easy to bring down with DL (a big creep that you can abuse sleep on). also you probably want to face NE or mirror in your first match up or going fast gargs is a gamble.

smth you may want to try out is going DL 2nd, you will get all the early benefits of the DK and if you bring the DL out early he will catch up and almost hit lvl 6 as fast as the DK. another cheeky combo i used to play is DK,DL,panda, quite nice vs human but also works against other races if you can keep the panda alive.

[CoupDeGrace]

@Dovekie i have tried DK as furst ofc but my early game does not suffer much if i go dreadlord furst instead of dk in ffa with 7-8 ppl every1 creeps gets expand thats what happens in 80% of the games i am playng so idk i will give dk another chanse i think :)

for sure i will try frosts + destro guess i need frenzy for frosts ?

about mass gargs and 1 frost , that army i tried it plenty of times just i think my micro is not good enough ... idk how to make gargs attack only air units if thats possible cuz lets say i fight with elf he has something like 3-4 chimeras and 15 hypp if i focus just 1 chimera usually gargs melt very fast and on top of that to select hyppo one after another ... thats just 2 much on my hands if i have to use heroes aswell .... so any tips how to go in that fight ?


@junkerzam

ok like i sayd above i will give another try to DK but just to mention in my games its 7-8 ppl everyone creeping early and goes for expand i do the same usually ;) and when 2nd hero (dk) comes at that point DL is lvl 4 sometimes lvl4 and a half.
and for sure if i play dk furst i will allways go DL as 2nd hero , cuz when DL hits lvl 6 it changes the game for me alot

[Tleilaxu]

Dread Lord first can good in 1v1 vs some races (human and mirror) but it's awful in ffa.
Fastest way to learn is to see how others do it. Go watch some Magadansky, Audigy, DV- replays etc.
Don't copy everything 100%, but adapt it to your own style.

[Peregrine]

lmao @ audigy being mentioned with great players like maga or DV

audigy was a semi troll...XX was better with necrowagon, im assuming thats why you even mentioned him

[Dovekie]

@Dovekie i have tried DK as furst ofc but my early game does not suffer much if i go dreadlord furst instead of dk in ffa with 7-8 ppl every1 creeps gets expand thats what happens in 80% of the games i am playng so idk i will give dk another chanse i think :)

That's not what I tried to imply.  It doesn't matter if your early game doesn't suffer, I am sure you can play just fine with a DL first. The problem is Undead needs to do more than "not suffer" or "play just fine" early game.  Undead needs to dominate early game to get a large advantage, cause Undead tends to be much worse later game, and you need to have dominated earlier to have a good chance at the W.  Dread Lord won't dominate you the early game, but unholy aura, nuke, and frost nova will.

[DV-]

Dont play it.
Its bad.
You gonna lose all games.

[DV-]

But yeah, if you are looking for best build orders of undead watch qwest's games. His bild orders are best by far.
Maga's standart build order is classic and more defensive so you can have safer early game.
Forget about fiends, they are useless late game 90% situations and requires incredible micro no wc3 player ever had.

[CoupDeGrace]

@DV- then i guess late game i go for mass wyrms and Frenzy? anything else to add to wyrms and frenzy?

[zTsoso]

Best advice is to experiment with builds and pay attention to the strenghts and weaknesses.

From my basic rdm race experience I can tell you the basics at least:

Fiend build:

The standard go-to build for undeads where you make at least 3 fiends and start creeping all over the map with undead heroes.

Advantages:

1. If you play ladder (especially) it is the safest build because you can defend almost all sorts of aggression in the early game.
2. It is easy to control fiends and creep all over the map with rods, and it is often faster than gargs (in the first 5-6 minutes I would say).

Disadvantages

1. The biggest disadvantage with the fiend build is that you gain levels fast on the DK, but not on the Lich / DL. This means that once your lich spawns your DK will be lvl 4 and you might have a level 1 lich and level 1 dreadlord if your creeping routes go bad.

2. Eventually you have to switch to gargs / destroyers or garg / wyrm because it is better in the later stages of the game. Why? Because it can handle different most army compositions from different races whereas fiends will get wrecked by chippo, orc ground units or even mass breakers / tanks.

Garg build:

starts with a greedy opening where undeads will attempt to take an expansion while teching up asap with a number of ghouls.

Advantages

The levels on your lich and dreadlord follows your DK more closely than a fiend build, which is absolutely crucial if you engage an elf for example with chippo, where u need nova and swarm at lvl 2 at least to fight properly.

Disadvantages

You are vulnerable at start, and you may get significantly behind if some orc goes for mass bats against your gargs. It is also weak against tanks and breakers if one fails at making the right preparations and decisions. Usually undeads want to be aggressive and use the mobility of gargs compared to tanks, but in the end it will cost them their expansions.

Anyway... DV and other undead players can give you more pros and cons. Some favor fiend play other prefer gargs. You have to experiment on different maps and in different games to really understand which is better as it is often situational.