Map Testing + Practice Session (Nov. 9th)

[FML|red7z7]

 

Hey all!
As we're just over a week away from the start of season 20 and the applications come streaming in (with one of the most talent-saturated cast of players ever), I'd like to announce a little event we'll be holding this coming weekend.

This Sunday we will be hosting some inhouse FFAs on a couple new and underused maps for the community to play-test. Players can give feedback and ultimately vote on which map they'd like to see added to the coming season's map-pool. There will be a stream and if the stars align there may even be a shoutcast! So come hang out, catch-up and chat with your fellow FFAers, and play or spectate a game or two :)

What: Test maps, play some 4-way inhouse FFAs
When: Sunday, November 9th -- 12:00 EST
Where: Meet in FFAmasters.net chatbox or in channel 'clan FML' on Azeroth to find out game names as they are hosted (we will be using the bot).

Fountain of Manipulation (To be unveiled)


Anarchy Castle


Death's Bayou (New version to be unveiled)


One more map (Please post in this thread a map you'd like to test on Sunday)
?

I know some of you old crocodiles just crawled out of your dens, so this will be a good chance for you to sharpen your teeth before the season. For everyone else, this is a good opportunity to scope out the competition and get some experience on new maps that might be used later on this season.

As a reminder, if you haven't already applied for season 20, you can do so at
http://ffamasters.net/index.php?topic=1861

See you there!

[Vyvanne]

If testing is still going on a little later in the day I'd be happy to drop by. Helping host a big party on Sat, we'll see what time Sun morning I get home :)

[Vyvanne]

Random thoughts from playing a game last night on Fountain -

Lots of poison creeps can make creeping a little tricky/difficult for certain races.  As an orc FFA player, this can be a pain in the ass. 

However, the abundance of green camps in the middle very close to each other, all that can spawn with +2 tomes can be very RNG and fun. Couple of exp tomes and sup, lvl 4 blademaster 5 minutes in.  I think if you are careful you can do a solo BM tech build, grab wyvs and just run around, killing every single creep that drops the tomes and hope for exp tomes.

Mana fountain of course favors UD and orc, and it's smack in the middle so this will be very fun to be contested, especially since there are not many gold mines.  This will encourage quick and dirty fighting - UD and NE will have a bit of an edge here with fast chippo + low lvl heroes  or fiend/statue's strength in the mid game.

Pathing does make for some interesting tactical choices when it comes to trying to hit someone. Kind of promotes what most would consider a "perfect" FFA game - two 1v1s and then a final 1v1, especially once the center mines start being taken and you have everyone carving our their own little corner.  You'll be running by someone's expansion to hit the other person if they've been attacking you, and that of course gives a lot of info out, and the player with the expansion there can act accordingly.  Potentially lots of manip fun here !

I expect lots of early clashes here and quick and furious fighting. Overall seems to be a fun map!

[FML|Mage]

Awesome feedback!  And props to Red for a great job on the map :)

[ins]

Football was on and then I worked 4-midnight yesterday, so I missed out on the games.  Hopefully some guys will be down to play on these maps this week; I'm anxious to try them out myself.

[Seksi]

Here are my thoughts after playing Fountain of Manipulation twice tonight:

-A well made map.  Red you did a nice job balancing the spawns in regards to position, spacing, ramps, lumber etc.  Overall the layout and proximity of all the neutral buildings seems spot on. 

-It has everything you could want in a FFA map, minus Merc camps which aren't game breaking.  Shops, Labs, Markets and a middle fountain.  It is a race to creep, expand and scout to initiate or defend your first 1v1.  I second what Elsha said in how it promotes the "perfect FFA game" style with 2 1v1s and then a final 1v1 which is great.  There isn't much time, room or gold for long drawn out 3 ways and tons of manip. 

-The gold mines are in great spots.  THe middle mines are contested yet you can choose which way to expand based on your first opponent. 

-I enjoyed the creeps, though they might be a bit too easy in spots.  Specifically the (4) red camps at middle gold mines and (1) red camp at the middle fountain.  You could add level 6 Rock Golems to go with the level 8 Ogri Magi's to the gold mines, and I'm not sure what else for the middle... perhaps replacing the level 6 Rock Golems there with a level 9 Purple Golem instead.  The red gold mines don't feel TOO easy, but the middle fountain certainly does. 

-Since there are few gold mines, I suggest increasing the gold counts of both the main and natural mines.  You could increase the main by 2500 and natural by 1000 (or something similar).  This would give players a better chance at staying in the game even if they don't fair well in the initial 1v1.

-It was cool to play not only a new map, but a medium sized 4 player map with limited amounts of gold.  In general it really helps the game to move forward and have action cutting out a lot of the tedious elements of FFA that aren't as enjoyable (sitting, hoarding, manipping, over extended teaming, long 3 ways).  Don't get me wrong, a good 6 or 8 player map is great too but this was refreshing. 

[DV-]

BIG POST

I just realised we dont need HUGE maps with TONS OF GOLD at all. Well, maybe couple of them?
I mean I dont like most of the FML maps cuz there is TOO MUCH GOLD. Why do we love FFA? Cuz of final 3 ways with pretty few units or even heroes only. Cuz of base race action in the end. But why do we need that dumb prelude of all of this?
I mean i saw many FML games where some players like RKK (and many others) was hoarding 40k gold. FFS. Then ppl spend 2 hours to just to waste their gold.
40K VS 25K VS 31K pointless swap.
Other part of it is pointless of scouting. No one ever will guess it right how much do u have 25K or 31K gold. Its almost impossible. And there begins chat... Most persuasive guy wins in the end.

My thought is: say bb to Gold Rush, Twilight, Harvest of Sorrow, Market Square, Deadlock.
Fountain of manipulation, Moonsoon, Emerald shore maybe Silverpine during the season and some big map for semis and final?

DUNNO WHY I WROTE ALL OF THIS LOL.
GLHF

[FML|WorpeX]

Really happy that Fountain of Manipulation is getting such high praise!! Can't wait to see it in action during this season. :D

[Pinballmap]

I just watched the new replay which was played on Fountain of Manipulation (Eshan,seksi,ins,nooblex). Looks good so far and it got much better than the early version i saw from you, Red. I like it so far, maybe i can give you more hints to improve it after i played it by myself.

[ins]

I think that map was fun to play, but I felt like my main gold mine dried up in about 5 minutes.  (Exaggeration obviously, but watch how long I was on just 1 mine in that game because I was concerned I couldn't hold a center base if someone decided to just aggro me for it.)  TBH, I think if a map is going to have just 3 gold mines per player, the gold mines themselves should have more in them--and not by a small margin.  Yes, when mines run out there is a special dynamic to a game where everyone is on a serious budget, and that's pretty cool in its own right.  However, imagine this scenario:

Each gold mine has (let's just say for the sake of argument) 30k.  In an FML-level game with good players, if someone grabs 2 mines in the middle, his opponents are obviously going to scout it and then make decisions about how to cut that 4th base down, and probably even kill his 3rd for being so greedy in the first place.  This could happen over and over again, with fights ensuing over these middle bases.

Another potential situation is that someone very aggressively tries to tome someone to take his mines, which still have a lot of juice in them.  We fight in FFA for 3 specific reasons (at least, in most cases): Gold, Experience, and to remove a threat.  On this map, if our main bases had upwards of 30k gold in them, you better believe I would 100 food push someone ASAP and take their main base.  A 30k mine is worth that.  One that's going to dry up 5 minutes after I get to 80 food...no, I don't care about that.  I'm certainly not going to go up to 100 for that, right?  Maybe for the levels or the brute force to kill one guy off, but I'm going to lose more than I'll gain if I sit 100 food for 5 minutes, just to mine 1400 gold off a 2k mine at 80 food when I'm done.  That sucks.

Now, the downside is that you could see 3-player ffas devolve into some major hoarding--but then, aren't people going to fight over expos more often because they can afford to?  On this map, it could go in a direction similar to a Risk game where one guy takes half the mid, another takes half the mid, and the third guy is doing god-knows-what on Asia with the dead guy's pair of mines.

Again, 30k itself was just an example number; it doesn't have to be that extreme at all.  But consider maybe going up to 20k or 22.5k or even 25k for some of these mines; at least, I would be interested in playing and watching a few games like that to see how it affects things.

[FML|red7z7]

Thanks to everyone for coming out to test the new maps on sunday! We have played quite a few games on Fountain of Manipulation so far and it has generated a lot of really great discussion. Thanks to everyone for giving feedback here and in the other thread as well. I've been listening to everyone's suggestions and I have a list of changes I'm going to make before the map is ever used in an official match. I'm very busy at the moment, but I will probably make a post of the changes that will be made sometime soon.

As for Death's Bayou, we tested it and found some significant problems with it. Fixing it is not a priority for me right now, so unless there is a lot of popular request for it, don't expect it to be playable any time soon. Anarchy castle was tested in official matches last season and went over pretty well too. We can probably host some inhouses on it within the next week to get more feedback as well.