FFA Masters League
League => League Discussion => Topic started by: FML|WorpeX on March 12, 2012, 04:13:00 pm
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i have a question though; what is the key to macro? is it:
1) the original meaning that you control something that you dont click on/outside of screen
2) money-management?
3) the combination?
4) something else
I only ask because i don't know, and i see people use macro regarding money, when i originally thought of it as something more like #1, but i dno:)
Maco is your economy and building management (they go hand in hand). This includes, but not limited to, your build order, off screen unit production, upkeep management, unit upgrades, building upgrades, expansion, etc etc etc.
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To me macro is much more than this.
It's knowing who to hit and who not to hit, and when
It's knowing what to say at the right time, and when to stay silent
It's scouting
Knowing when to hoard and when to go to 80/100
Knowing when to where to expand
Knowing how much to tower up
It's thinking ahead and understanding your enemies
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so basically Best Macro = Best Hoarder + Best Decision Maker?
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You don't need to hoard to win every game. You need to know when to hoard and when not to.
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To me macro is much more than this.
It's knowing who to hit and who not to hit, and when
It's knowing what to say at the right time, and when to stay silent
It's scouting
Knowing when to hoard and when to go to 80/100
Knowing when to where to expand
Knowing how much to tower up
It's thinking ahead and understanding your enemies
No, this is known as FFA sense. Learn your random terms!
Edit: Actually, scouting could be macro or micro, depending on the scout. (example, shades would be a micro scout but human towers are a macro scout)
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To me macro is much more than this.
It's knowing who to hit and who not to hit, and when
It's knowing what to say at the right time, and when to stay silent
It's scouting
Knowing when to hoard and when to go to 80/100
Knowing when to where to expand
Knowing how much to tower up
It's thinking ahead and understanding your enemies
Mostly agree with ebo on this one. Maybe not the chat thing, but definitely knowing when to break 50, when to tower, when to hoard, how much you can get away with expanding, and so on. Best macro could be someone who's 100 all game, given that's what was needed in that particular situation.
Best decision maker, I suppose there's some overlap, but I'd say this covers things like knowing exactly where you stand in comparison to the other players, and acting accordingly. Tons of games are lost by people forcing a 1v1 with someone stronger than them, or by sitting inside a surround with 2 mines rather than breaking out through an unprepared opponent, or by rushing someone you can't handle. Best decision maker would be someone who doesn't lose because of these kinds of things.
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To me macro is much more than this.
It's knowing who to hit and who not to hit, and when
It's knowing what to say at the right time, and when to stay silent
It's scouting
Knowing when to hoard and when to go to 80/100
Knowing when to where to expand
Knowing how much to tower up
It's thinking ahead and understanding your enemies
No, this is known as FFA sense. Learn your random terms!
Meh, I call it what I feel like. I think "macro" as you describe it is a term from SC 1v1 games, which takes entirely different meaning in Wc3 FFA.
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To me macro is much more than this.
It's knowing who to hit and who not to hit, and when
It's knowing what to say at the right time, and when to stay silent
It's scouting
Knowing when to hoard and when to go to 80/100
Knowing when to where to expand
Knowing how much to tower up
It's thinking ahead and understanding your enemies
No, this is known as FFA sense. Learn your random terms!
Meh, I call it what I feel like. I think "macro" as you describe it is a term from SC 1v1 games, which takes entirely different meaning in Wc3 FFA.
Perhaps. My background is in Wc3 solo so I define Macro/Micro as what they are in the solo term and then everything that is unique to FFA I consider "FFA Sense".
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Well if we look at definitions; micro is small picture stuff (tactics) and macro is big picture stuff (strategies)
So technically, building stuff while battling is not macro, it's micro
Scouting is macro, but controlling your scout is micro
Army composition is macro, but controlling said army is micro
Chatting would be macro, and so would choosing your race and your hero (controlling the heroes however, is micro)
But consider "Chessing" technically it means making an easily conterable strategies that wins by getting the enemy off guard, however due to missuse, it now means cookie cutter, so it doesn't matter what it's suppose to mean, what matter is what it means to the community!
Micro: Controlling your army
Macro: Controlling your economy (going 50v80v100 is here, but not who to hit and when, it's not scouting, and it's not army constitution; that's "ffa sense" or decision making if you prefer)
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Well if we look at definitions; micro is small picture stuff (tactics) and macro is big picture stuff (strategies)
So technically, building stuff while battling is not macro, it's micro
Scouting is macro, but controlling your scout is micro
Army composition is macro, but controlling said army is micro
Chatting would be macro, and so would choosing your race and your hero (controlling the heroes however, is micro)
But consider "Chessing" technically it means making an easily conterable strategies that wins by getting the enemy off guard, however due to missuse, it now means cookie cutter, so it doesn't matter what it's suppose to mean, what matter is what it means to the community!
Micro: Controlling your army
Macro: Controlling your economy (going 50v80v100 is here, but not who to hit and when, it's not scouting, and it's not army constitution; that's "ffa sense" or decision making if you prefer)
You make it way complicated, Rena.
Micro = clicking your units quickly. Good micro = being able to click very fast. Bad micro = not being able to do so.
Macro = everything else. Good macro = Nooblex. Bad macro = Maga.
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i wouldn't say tha maga has bad macro, but as good as his micro(ofc)
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Wrong
Micro: Controlling your army
Macro: Controlling your economy
Decision Making: The rest
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Wrong
Micro: Controlling your army
Macro: Controlling your economy
Decision Making: The rest
Wrong:
Micro: controlling your army and buildings
Macro: everything else
Should go back to NE: Renaud
Should play again: Ugri
Should stop cheesing Cryptlord: Worpex
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i wouldn't say tha maga has bad macro, but as good as his micro(ofc)
He can't win a game vs all top players for the life of him, unless there is someone too op in game with him (e.g. darkness).
I give Maga credit for using the weakest FFA race well, but I take that credit away for doing same hero combo same strat every single game.
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i wouldn't say tha maga has bad macro, but as good as his micro(ofc)
He can't win a game vs all top players for the life of him, unless there is someone too op in game with him (e.g. darkness).
I give Maga credit for using the weakest FFA race well, but I take that credit away for doing same hero combo same strat every single game.
"Ok" Mr. Orc BM-TC-SH on market map
The reason you think maga has bad macro decision making, is because hes always getting 2v1. That's not because he made bad decisions, it's because everyone is afraid of him.
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I completely disagree with what you said about maga having bad macro
his macro is amazing, that's why he get's far
watch more of his games: he knows when to hoard when to go 100 when to mass expand etc.
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i wouldn't say tha maga has bad macro, but as good as his micro(ofc)
He can't win a game vs all top players for the life of him, unless there is someone too op in game with him (e.g. darkness).
I give Maga credit for using the weakest FFA race well, but I take that credit away for doing same hero combo same strat every single game.
"Ok" Mr. Orc BM-TC-SH on market map
The reason you think maga has bad macro decision making, is because hes always getting 2v1. That's not because he made bad decisions, it's because everyone is afraid of him.
OMG I went BM once... Trust me, not happening again in awhile.
He is getting 2v1ed exactly because he is not very good at macro.
To be fair, though, even if he did get better at macro, he'd still get teamed, just because he made such a name for himself. Sort of like a boy who cried wolf.
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So basically you are saying "Maga should not play a hoarding game, because he will be hit anyway" isn't that macro according to your wrong definition?
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now you are getting ridiculous in ur arguing ebo
have u seen- this is one of x examples -his fml season win, the final with nooblex, wrecktify and nline. or his fml final vs htrt humanstar ->he didn't do bad at all. or his game with darkness, duck and ugri. the is only good with worse players is BS.
he owned them with gold and also macro and that was not the only time
he gets teamed cos of fear, same reason yane got teamed etc
if you are in a game with 4ppl in maga it is natural to not want to be eliminated by him through micro/macro wars and thus you help kill him when teaming him. this fear unfortunately for maga goes so far that one person ends sacrificing his win chances for this.
however maga can be proud of it because it isn't easy to instill a whole society with well earned respect in the manner he has.
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If his goal is to instill fear and get teamed and then cry about it, then all the power to him!
Nline wasn't a particularly good player, I wouldn't call that match a top level, really.
Like I said, Maga can win, especially if there is a good orc in game, because then others team the orc instead. He only lasted in FML10 final because it was a 3way.
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So basically you are saying "Maga should not play a hoarding game, because he will be hit anyway" isn't that macro according to your wrong definition?
I'm not sure where I said that.
Maga is in a position where he is going to lose vs 3 smart players no matter what... except if there is a strong orc in game, in which case orc gets focused, and maga can excel in a 3way. His reputation is such that people like to team him but not suicide him. So his goal should be to achieve a quick 3 way, and then play low key, wait for other 2 to get mad and suicide each other (see his market game vs darkness in S10).
The problem is, Maga can't achieve a quick 3 way unless someone helps him (see s10 final). He can't finish a decent/good player quick (ud sucks at base killing, making it even harder for him), and if he tries to tome a player regularly (a retarded strat, in most cases, btw), he gets too strong, and gets teamed.
The reason I'm saying his macro is not very good is because
#1: he rarely (if ever) double teches. Every top macro Ud's goal should be to double tech without using triple nuke cheese. People hate triple ud cheese as much as triple orc or triple hu (I'm sure Rena going to deny this). And someone like maga can make it super annoying with endless hit and run. Not going triple cheese immediately lets people think that they will have less of an annoyance out of you = they will be less likely to irrationally team you
Secondly, if he double teches quietly, he can properly defend against base races (which is what kills him often)
#2 he is an ego player, which means in a 4way he is going to hit irrationally, without proper consideration. See recent market game vs NE ORC ORC. He doesn't scout either orc, focuses NE, gets his ass kicked by bryan, cries about orc imba. Can anything else spell out "bad"?
#3 he doesn't change up his game play. Every single game he plays, he does the same thing. People know what to expect from him. Enough said. Better players either stay underdog and do same strat quietly and correctly (l77), or change up depending on the match, and can potentially come up with something new (persuade, lightweight, htrt).
All of these are very real suggestions to improve his winning rate vs top players. I'm sure he will ignore them, of course, because maga has a huge ass ego, unlike a much better ud like Duck who has both good micro and macro.
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Ebony is right.
ZULU POWER :hu: :hu: :hu: :hu:
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It's funny because your argument is counter intuitive.
He should go dual race? If you watch the past fml final, all players stop fighitng once yane got a peasant, and went 220 (dase couldn't go 100 :P) in his main, to kill said peasant (they did that twice). How can any ud ever go dual tech w/o getting teamed in a high level FFA? It's basicly screaming "I HAVE MASS GOLD!". (You manged to pull it off in your semi because the players where not scared of you, and they had little experience facing a good dual techer ud... which they could have gotten if you din't make an mk :P)
Dual race is fine if you are against inexperienced or mediocre players that wont team you for it.
And you have part of a point. I hated triple nuke cheese... when I was playing ladder 8 years ago. Orc has NO reason to be scared of ud hero (i don't care how fast they are, or how much dmg the nuke does, between purge and hexastomp, they will die). Like wise Hu has very good anti ud nuke (bolt light) and the typical army is gryph/tank. By the time you finish killing the gryph (if you can... with all the healing/staff) it's sad if he din't manage to either tank your main or nuke your hero. Elf? Yeah for elf nuke and run is deadly as hell.... looks like we found a hero combo that's valid vs elf! yay!
Nuke and Run is imba vs mediocre players, but it's only good vs the rest of them. (Unlike other hero combo who are imba even vs micro players)
AND macro is controlling your economy, not everything that is not micro
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So you apply your arbitrary definition of macro to the few games you've seen of maga after showing up from your hiatus and call him "bad"?
Macro in the general sense is everything dealing with your economy. This includes some aspects of decision-making of course, such as when to go 80, what to spend your money on. Maga is very, very good at that.
Maybe you wanna stop calling players way ahead of you in skill "bad" and blame their "huge ass ego" for not listening to YOU? Sorry for the language, but in reality its you who should really get his head out of his ass.
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Dase you're basically Maga who plays orc, except that gets you even more teamed because orc is OP. I'm sure you're totally on his side. Show me a replay where Maga wins vs 3 good players please. I know of one such replay, market vs darkness johny murrock and he won thanks to early 3way/darkness taking up heat/suicide + stay quiet like I mentioned in my tips.
Here is my litmus test for figuring out if a player has good macro or not:
If I clone myself and put that player in a game with 3 of me, does he have an equal chance (25%)? That's not the case with maga. 3 of me would be smart enough to team him when he does he cookie cutter shit yet again. On the other hand someone like l77 would have 25%, because he'd be smart enough about playing the right way to keep an illusion of balance, and strike out at the right point in time.
And once again, you're applying SC 1v1's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. I apply WC3 FFA's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. But that's semantics. Really, who cares?
And lastly, you bring up my own skill. Are we discussing my skill here? Where/when did I claim that I'm good or better than player X? Or are you saying that me being low skill doesn't allow me to criticize others? Oh so fat b-ball coaches can't say shit to actual players because they don't play b-ball as well? OK son.
P.S. You keep mentioning this Yane person, I have no idea who that is, except one game where he made aboms vs orc. Anyone who does that is basically bad. Ud letting orc hoard 40k, good job, except no, he's bad.
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Stop feeding the troll. If he honestly believes in his "arguments" then he is just delusional, just see how he says "three of me will team him" without realizing that I will kill at least one of those noob. If the players who suffers the most from my army doesnt stop, is this teaming or PREteaming (rhetorical question of course)? But thats hard to digest for someone who when he hears my name, shits in his pants.
And in your own words, three of me won't team you but you still never win.
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Stop feeding the troll. If he honestly believes in his "arguments" then he is just delusional, just see how he says "three of me will team him" without realizing that I will kill at least one of those noob. If the players who suffers the most from my army doesnt stop, is this teaming or PREteaming (rhetorical question of course)? But thats hard to digest for someone who when he hears my name, shits in his pants.
And in your own words, three of me won't team you but you still never win.
I'd have about 25% chance to win vs 3 magas, because they would all run around like morons attacking each other without any idea of what's going on elsewhere. One of them would try to tome me, I'll cry for help, another maga will hit maga who hit me, and I will finish them both at the right time.
Maga vs 3 ebos would have ~1% chance to win. I'd love a game of Ebo Maga Q l77.
In other words, your reply is exactly like I expected. Let's not feed the trolls, let's feed Maga's giant ego instead!
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You are so delusional and afraid, it is funny :)))
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Actually 3 maga and 1 ebo, maga would win 99.9% of the time
Why? Simple! Like you said maga has this honor thing, where he probably wouldn't team someone until he is the strongest, so the game would be two 1v1 (and he would probably go quick 80, since like you said, UD needs high hero to be competitive, so early aggression is good ffa sense (what you call macro))
I'm guessing that 90% of the time, Maga would win his 1v1 vs you, then enter a 3 way. And in the 10% where you win that intial 1v1, you would probably be teamed for being orc. And assuming you are not orc... well your odds of winning just dropped again. And they would probably team you once you start manipulation, to keep the game clean and simple.
And once again, you're applying SC 1v1's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. I apply WC3 FFA's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. But that's semantics. Really, who cares?
and this is where you are wrong. WC3 FFA is what? It's us. And we decided long ago to have the same meaning as 1v1 for macro, and we added the term "FFA sense" to explain the rest of the stuff.
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You are so delusional and afraid, it is funny :)))
Ego talk /yawn.
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Actually 3 maga and 1 ebo, maga would win 99.9% of the time
Why? Simple! Like you said maga has this honor thing, where he probably wouldn't team someone until he is the strongest, so the game would be two 1v1 (and he would probably go quick 80, since like you said, UD needs high hero to be competitive, so early aggression is good ffa sense (what you call macro))
I'm guessing that 90% of the time, Maga would win his 1v1 vs you, then enter a 3 way. And in the 10% where you win that intial 1v1, you would probably be teamed for being orc. And assuming you are not orc... well your odds of winning just dropped again. And they would probably team you once you start manipulation, to keep the game clean and simple.
You mean 99.9% chance of one of maga's winning, meaning 33.33% chance of "the" maga winning?
No, it wouldn't be a fun game for me, but like I said, unless Maga specifically wants someone dead (not typical, but he may make an exception for me), he hits closest person like a retard. Therefore, I have 25% chance of surviving to 3way, then using them against each other to survive. Maga is bad at macro, but he is not a suicider, he knows when to stop fighting and play balancing game, at least.
I agree that this is not a good match for an ebo-type player, but this is the only matchup where a maga-type would have best chances of winning. In all other combinations, he would have 0%-15% to win at best. You're thinking in absolutes, Renaud, while I think about averages and overall expected outcomes long-term. You should see the movie "Moneyball", it explains why maga-types are actually not very good in sports, but are beloved by the public.
and this is where you are wrong. WC3 FFA is what? It's us. And we decided long ago to have the same meaning as 1v1 for macro, and we added the term "FFA sense" to explain the rest of the stuff.
I call it what I like, don't like it, call it something else. Are we seriously arguing semantics of a dead game?
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Well if we rate players on that we must all have the same criteria!
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Another funny thing is that this guy hates me for no reason. At least Wreck has reasons to hate me since we always suicide each other (except on the FML final) but except being a total attention whore I have no other explanation why he is trying that much.
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Well if we rate players on that we must all have the same criteria!
Fair enough, which is why I originally asked that mods only do the rating.
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Another funny thing is that this guy hates me for no reason. At least Wreck has reasons to hate me since we always suicide each other (except on the FML final) but except being a total attention whore I have no other explanation why he is trying that much.
Where did I say that I hate you, Maga?
I don't hate anybody. I don't even hate HU abusers, because antagonizing them is fun. The only person I somewhat hated last season was DKH.SS, who basically said that he hates FFA and doesn't want to play at some point and kept suiciding in almost every game, but he got better in the end and even pulled out into the finals, so I don't hate him anymore (in fact respect him, somewhat).
I don't hate you. Having you in FML and in any given game is fun because you add a layer of strategy based around using you as a scapegoat. Though I don't particularly enjoy playing many of "maga-types", because to me it's mindless gameplay; once in awhile, it's nice for a change. I do like to play the ebo-types more because I enjoy the chess tactics/manipulation from all sides, more than finger agility training. But hate you? No, I don't need to hate you to give a fair assessment of your skill.
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But you dont give that fair assessment since you say that I mindlessly hit everybody which is very very far away from the truth. There is not a single game that I hit anyone without thinking in advance why. You saw way too little number of games from me to judge me in any sort, and you take the games that you saw selectively and only certain moments where I made mistakes ingame, not because I would do that if I had the right information. Name me one player who doesnt make mistakes,small or big, in every ffa that goes past the one hour mark. What you do though is to pick those mistakes, small or big, and emphasize only on them how I am playing without a clue.
Anyway, I am done with replying. Read the paragraph again if you continue to think that I am a mindless soloer who rages against everybody in ffa. If no change, then I stick even harder to my first comment: you are delusional and funny (in a pathetic way) or just an attention whore.
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You're right Maga, maybe my sample size of your games is too small, not going to argue there. The reason I even started talking about you in the context of what "macro" is because to me you're the polarizing example of quite possibly best micro of all FFA players out there. Cheers.
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Dase you're basically Maga who plays orc, except that gets you even more teamed because orc is OP. I'm sure you're totally on his side. Show me a replay where Maga wins vs 3 good players please. I know of one such replay, market vs darkness johny murrock and he won thanks to early 3way/darkness taking up heat/suicide + stay quiet like I mentioned in my tips.
Here is my litmus test for figuring out if a player has good macro or not:
If I clone myself and put that player in a game with 3 of me, does he have an equal chance (25%)? That's not the case with maga. 3 of me would be smart enough to team him when he does he cookie cutter shit yet again. On the other hand someone like l77 would have 25%, because he'd be smart enough about playing the right way to keep an illusion of balance, and strike out at the right point in time.
And once again, you're applying SC 1v1's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. I apply WC3 FFA's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. But that's semantics. Really, who cares?
And lastly, you bring up my own skill. Are we discussing my skill here? Where/when did I claim that I'm good or better than player X? Or are you saying that me being low skill doesn't allow me to criticize others? Oh so fat b-ball coaches can't say shit to actual players because they don't play b-ball as well? OK son.
Watch more games of Maga. I've played him many times (also back in the old days on ladder) and he's probably the best UD in FFA I've ever seen (only surpassed by Yane in micro, but not as a player).
Your litmus test is, to put it lightly, flawed. I'll let you figure out why.
B-Ball coaches actually know something about the game that is of value to the players coached by them. Also, it's a team sport, which makes the comparison much worse. But more importantly, I never brought up your skill to say you shouldn't be allowed to talk about other players. Just stop being so disrespectful.
After all, why I pointed out the differences between macro and decision making seems to be the issue here. I think using your simplification of macro (based on the encyclopedia of FFA? what? where did you get that "definition" from?) you misjudge what people consider to be individual playing styles. You want to win by tactics and "chess moves", that's fine, we don't hate for you that, but never think we don't know about it and don't keep it in mind.
Over and out.
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Dase I made pretty damn constructive points of improving Maga's macro based on the games I've seen. How is that disrespectful? A fat coach mentioning a pro player's weaknesses and indicating how those could be alleviated is being disrespectful?
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I agree with ebo, everytime I play maga, he mindlessly creepjacks me, and I sit there scratching my head how vvv.deuce got on maga's account(deuce is the definition of down syndrome in the oxford dictionary)
His ego and inability to lie well/feign weakness is what is holding him back from being a great player. Micro means a lot less than macro in ffa, 14 points less in maga's case.
p.s never compare maga to yane again as they are not close in skill what so ever(yane 50x better), thanks.
over and out
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Well this was a nice thread idea, a shame it was derailed and turned into flaming and poking holes in other peoples play style.
Closed.
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A fat coach mentioning a pro player's weaknesses and indicating how those could be alleviated is being disrespectful?
But you are a fat coach who said "if you played against me you would only win 1% of the time" :P
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and well even though this is not derailling anymore I guess i'll keep it lock since we all seem to have strong opinions about macro vs ffa sense and fat coaches vs maga, and we don't look like we will change our minds!