FML super sunday

[FML|Renaud]

Scouting should be done at the start of the game with a worker or a summon, and so finding him should not be a problem.

If you kill the orc's main, along with all of his production building, it will give you a large window of time where he is unable to build an army.  that time is more than enough to find his newly built production building and kill them again.

early game 100v50 will always win, unless you decide to stop hunting him down

[rygorych]

Scouting should be done at the start of the game with a worker or a summon, and so finding him should not be a problem.

If you kill the orc's main, along with all of his production building, it will give you a large window of time where he is unable to build an army.  that time is more than enough to find his newly built production building and kill them again.

early game 100v50 will always win, unless you decide to stop hunting him down

So then we're in even more of an agreement, because seems like you're saying orc is bad.

[FML|Renaud]

Actually if you look, I said that orc and hu where bad
They are both terrible race that can be rushed

[rygorych]

Actually if you look, I said that orc and hu where bad
They are both terrible race

Good, good, we're working in the right direction now.

[Nooblex]

Ebo you don't even play NE.

NE maps: chokes, mass expansions and lack of stacking items.

Silverpine has none of these things.

Crucible is a great NE map. Deadlock is good for NE except that it's way too large and open, and market is best for HU (raised bases, tons of creeps, but no claw shops), and good for UD and Orc too. Savage storm is terrible for NE due to huge creeps and lack of expansions or chokes.

Twilight and Harvest are probably the most balanced for all races, which is why I think they should be used for the finals.

[rygorych]

Twilight and Harvest are probably the most balanced for all races, which is why I think they should be used for the finals.

This part I agree with.

The rest doesn't address my main point that it's easier to rush out orc/hu on a smaller map, regardless of items, shops, chokes and mines.

[FML|Renaud]

Yeah, dase wasn't rush on Twilight in the finals, likewise, Nline wasn't rush on Market

[rygorych]

Yeah, dase wasn't rush on Twilight in the finals, likewise, Nline wasn't rush on Market

It's just less likely. Dase got unlucky spawn, if he was at least 1 spot away, he'd have ALOT more time to defend properly. I'm not saying you can't be rushed on a large 8, I'm saying it's less likely/less effective, and there is more opportunity for rebuild.

[FML|Renaud]

Objection:
On a smaller map it's much easier to scout the rush coming and build a counter
Smaller map are better for orcs

[rygorych]

Objection:
On a smaller map it's much easier to scout the rush coming and build a counter
Smaller map are better for orcs

I object your objection:

Any competent early 80/100 rusher will hide their rush units and pretend to be hoarding. You can't scout the rush being prepared. You can only scout it coming, in which case larger map helps more.

[Redkeekee]

I feel like all of this may be moot as "rush" is hardly what I would call 80 or 100.  In 1vs1 a close spawn can make a huge difference on Turtle Rock for instance in NE vs Hu in a tower rush situation.  The elf LITERALLY has no chance to prepare because militia arrive so quickly.  However, it takes at LEAST 10+ minutes (fastest I've gotten a full chippo army off 2 base is 15) to get a 100/100 T3 army and if you haven't scouted your enemy by 10 minutes you're clearly doing it wrong.  Size and position can only make the "rush" easier in the amount of time it takes to move the army which, when you've had 15 minutes to prepare, is negligible.  If you take EM2 as an example, when I rushed out L77, he didn't have an army ready when my 8 chims arrived.  However, if you go back and look, there was ample time for him to pump out a counter army in preparation, lots of time went by with his production buildings doing nothing and his gold count high.  Meanwhile my roosts were pumping.  If he had started to build an army at the same time as me, he would have been able to match me in food count when I got there.  Lack of scouting or not expecting my aggression was what caught him, not position or races' ability to prepare in time.

TLDR version: <3 Ebo but I have to side with the others.

[FML|Renaud]

You are right, a smart "rusher" will hide his army until it's ready
However a smart hoarder will scout the production building, if there is light coming out of it, it's time to pump

[Redkeekee]

I just went back to check the timing.  At exactly 13:14 in EM2 L77 scouts my production buildings (as a good hoarder would) and sees 4 roosts all building.  At this point in time he has 2 workshops and 2 gryphon avs doing nothing.  They don't begin their first unit until my rush arrives at 14:34, at which point it's too late.  Granted, he scouted the roosts a tad late (the first wave of chims were already half done) but even STILL my units didn't arrive at his main base until 14:45 giving him 1:31 to create a preliminary 80ish army and at least delay for time to get more units out instead of being caught with his virtual pants down at 50 food.  So... human error or race/map imbalance?

[rygorych]

I feel like all of this may be moot as "rush" is hardly what I would call 80 or 100.  In 1vs1 a close spawn can make a huge difference on Turtle Rock for instance in NE vs Hu in a tower rush situation.  The elf LITERALLY has no chance to prepare because militia arrive so quickly.  However, it takes at LEAST 10+ minutes (fastest I've gotten a full chippo army off 2 base is 15) to get a 100/100 T3 army and if you haven't scouted your enemy by 10 minutes you're clearly doing it wrong.  Size and position can only make the "rush" easier in the amount of time it takes to move the army which, when you've had 15 minutes to prepare, is negligible.  If you take EM2 as an example, when I rushed out L77, he didn't have an army ready when my 8 chims arrived.  However, if you go back and look, there was ample time for him to pump out a counter army in preparation, lots of time went by with his production buildings doing nothing and his gold count high.  Meanwhile my roosts were pumping.  If he had started to build an army at the same time as me, he would have been able to match me in food count when I got there.  Lack of scouting or not expecting my aggression was what caught him, not position or races' ability to prepare in time.

TLDR version: <3 Ebo but I have to side with the others.

Fine, so in other words you're saying that it is more difficult to 80/100 rush on larger maps, but the difference is negligible, I can play with that.

The difference is not negligible. Even 10-20 second of extra time (it's actually more on a map like twilight, where even 1 extra spot is good 30 seconds, e.g. if dase had a ward in the empty spot and saw htrt's griff/foots coming).

You don't need to match armies in order to defend from an early 80/100. You have towers and your base to help you. Even 10-15 food of extra units, easily built in those 20-30 second help. Not to mention you can start on new towers, or buy up more potions.


You're saying that the big reason 80-100 rush succeeds is the HU/Orc didn't scout 4 flashing roosts? Then you're the one doing it wrong, putting roosts in a spot where they'd get scouted. A NE really trying to make his rush count would build 1 dummy roost and hide 2-3. Scouting hidden roosts/boneyards/temples is possible, but almost noone in FML would take an effort to do so.

Map size does make a difference, a big one. On a map like gold rush, when you're trying to reach even an non scouting person, slow armies like wagonmancer lose their power simply due to time it takes to get there. On a map like silverpine, even wagonmancer travels from one corner to another within 20-30 sec.

[rygorych]

Oh and one other factor is reinforcements. If the battle stretches up (see htrt vs dase), and initial momentum of the rush is lost, being close or far makes a huge difference.