Community Input!!

[FML|WorpeX]

As many of you noticed with the very vague post that Mage posted, FML S21 is still a ways away and also still very much in the planning stages. So now is the best time to hear from the fans and players as to what you all think should be included or excluded into the next season!

Any and all suggestions are welcome! We value everyone's opinion greatly here so don't be afraid to tell us your thoughts!!

[FML|Mog]

It should be a smaller player pool like 20 or so. Past champs and well known/established players should get 12-16 of those spots through invite only (that way I don't have to practice, and neither does my alter ego Renaud). Then the last 4-8 spots could be filled through a short double elimination qualifier so players have 2 chances to qualify like olden times.

The main reason I recommend these ideas, apart from selfish reasons, is that last season we saw well known players getting hard teamed 2v1 or 3v1, and (arguably) weaker players winning qualifier games simply by doing nothing and waiting for the more well known players to get unrightfully teamed out.

Another idea I had would be for the qualifiers to be played as anonymous games, then the season play as normal. But I realized that would be a scheduling nightmare for admins to figure out.

[Seksi]

Couple of ideas... The 4-way games have become more and more mundane and predictable.  They almost always delve into a 3 way where players alternate attacks and manipulate.  As it stands, there is basically no advantage to playing well early and winning your initial 1v1.  In fact, it often is a disadvantage as said player will be seen as the threat and the other players will stop fighting. 

The other point is that these games often take so long - especially when the stakes are high.  This leads to passiveness and far too much chatting and little fighting. 

To help combat these points, I propose the following:

1) A timer could be added to the games (similar to BNet's tournaments).  This idea was brought up after seeing last season's dreadfully long Semi Finals.  Once the timer is out, the game ends.  Player with the highest score would win at that point.  However, games would rarely end in this manner as there would be real incentive to be active and much less being passive. 

It could be set at different limits based on the map, but a standard number could be 90 minutes.  This would give enough time (too little time would alter the games in a bad way) for a complete FFA game while promoting action and decisive moves.  As the game goes into the 2nd half of time the pressure and action would increase leading to fast-paced FFA play.  Naturally there could be cons to this but I really think it could work great, hopefully we can test this out.

2) Increase the number of players in the games, when possible.  I think we can all agree that the 4 way games at times are stale since you can count on a predictable, boring 3 way.  This is not the case however when you have 6 or 8 players in a game.  As you've seen in past showmatches with 6 or 8 players, the games are often great and unpredictable.  The unpredictable factor is key in enjoying FFA in its glory and can be lost often times in a 4 player game. 

With 6 or 8 players, players have their early opponents but they can change on a whim and directions be refocused.  Dead players have the ability to rebuild, stronger players don't have to face the dreaded 3-way of teaming after successfully taking someone out.  Some will get better spawns then others, but overall it is a fun and balanced game! 

A con to this is scheduling as Maga was quick to point out today, though 6 player games could be much easier to schedule as opposed to 8.  I think its safe to say the best FFA games are 6+ skilled players. 

[FML|Mage]

Very good points you guys, we've been heavily discussing both the player format and time limits.  I won't reveal our decisions on them but do know we're giving them heavy consideration.

We had not talked about doing anon FFA for the qualifiers, and honestly I don't really like the idea.  That being said it's worth thinking about so thanks for the suggesting it.

6 way FFA is also something that we really have not given any consideration to, and I don't even really have an opinion on it since I haven't thought about it.  Interesting suggestion, and these are what we're looking for!

Feel free to provide additional ideas, and even if you think it's something we've already covered you can chip in.

Something I've discussed individually with a few players but would like more feedback on.  What do players think of the tiebreaker points we did for a few seasons?  And what is the ideal way to break ties from a players perspective.  By no means saying you'll have any actual input into it for the season, however we do take into consideration your opinions before we create the rules.

[zTsoso]

I agree with seksi's two points that a timer and a 6-player or 8-player format could be great additions to the FML tournament.

Making the games anonymous will be a hard since we have few FML players making it easy to discover player style according to race etc. I do think that anonymous games are the best way to avoid "unrightful" teaming on high profile players, but I am not sure it would work in practice (problems with scheduling, discovering player styles etc). I do like the idea though!

About the qualifier / FML tournament: I don't like the idea of auto-qualification for well-established players. Newcomers and less high profile players should have a chance to participate and advance as well. So, I think It's better if players earn their spot in the FML season based on their performance in last season (if they made it to finals= auto qualify).

Yes qualifying games will probably result in some of the high profile players being taken out, but i think it's necessary to make the tournament interesting and dynamic. I really liked the way last season went with 3 qualifying games into a FML qualifying season to finals / semifinals. 3 games with a timer should be enough for strong players to make it through!

Other than that I don't have any new ideas that I think could benefit FML. Removing chatting in 4-ways can work and make games interesting if all players are good and know how to scout. I don't think it would make the FML games more interesting to watch though because a lot of players are bad at scouting  . It's better from my point of view if there is a timer on the games that will force the action - then the chat/manip/sitting/hoarding in 3-ways should be less productive.   

[Magadansky]

Going to throw just a few points/ opinions on what it has been said (don't have much time):

- I think it should be the usual that only finalists get to get into the new season automatically. Having the same players over and over will be boring and will be a barrier for new blood to try their luck. Yes, there will be upsets but thats the spirit of the game.

- 8 way definitely not as this is a scheduling nightmare. 6 way can work though. My suggestion is that this can be a side event of some sorts maybe?

- No chat and anonymity I am definitely against. Bad for viewers, bad for the game itself. We played many no chat games already and they all suck even with capable ffa players.

- Timer is a good idea and I am for testing it out. 90 mins for smaller maps and maybe 120 for bigger maps should be good enough.

[Valefort]

I like the 6 or 8 players idea a lot. Here are a couple of thoughts about it :

From what I saw last season most of the games end up full with 8 obs and there are always people ready to sub.

There is the possibility to turn those observers into players just for that game and transform a 4 way into a 6 or 8 way, depending on the circumstances. Also most of the time some of those observers are not qualified or have no stakes in the game, which make them ideal picks.

How about this :

Normal scheduling of 4 way, game is hosted, everyone joins. Admin flips a coin, heads it's a normal 4-way, tails it's a 6-way. In case of a 6-way first two volunteers, provided they're okayed by the admin (to avoid people being sniped etc), join the fray. That way there are no extra scheduling issues. No volunteers ? Classic 4 way.

The 6-way map is also indicated in advance in the scheduling thread (if need be, ie if the initial map is a 4 players map).

To avoid those extra players from messing up the ranking they are ideally picked from non-qualified players pool. Since it's also harder to win such a game the points could be granted like this :

1. 25
2. 15
3. 10
4. 10
5. 5
6. 5

[FML|Mage]

Well, a lot more interest in 6ways then I would have thought.  We'll certainly discuss it. 

A few things to consider about it.  6 way FFA's lend themselves to larger seasons.  If there's going to be 6 people in the final it means we'd probably need at least 24 people in the season, possibly more. 

Scoring will need to be changed up, but this isn't a huge deal.

Scheduling will be a problem, but it's not unworkable I don't think.

3 ways are still a problem.  They always have been and always will be regardless of the number of players involved.  However, combined with a time limit perhaps this problem could be eliminated.

** These opinions do not reflect my views as an admin, just as a caster/observer. 

[FML|Mog]

Maybe only one 6 way game during season... As like a mid season match the liven things up a bit. With a scoring of like 30, 20, 10, 10, 5, 5?

Also I liked the TB points in past seasons in order to break ties, as well as the 11 pts for 2nd IMO has always been a good rule.

[FML|red7z7]

I think 6 ways can definitely be fun and lead to chaotic games, but I would say that they don't belong in FML league matches. FML league has always been 4 players and it is kind of what defines top tier tournament FFA in my opinion. (I also don't think it would make the games all that more interesting, as they will still end in long 3 ways when the outcome of the game matters -- it will just take longer to reach the 3 way).

scheduling and point system are two more reasons it would be hard to do

[Dovekie]

TIMERS / SCORES / 6-WAYS / TEAM ORCS

[Tyrant66]

i think season 18 had a pretty good format, at least better than the 20th. 4ways are fine, need many qualify games where only the winner gets into the main season. Everyone can try multiple times. And a longer season like 6 games.(i think 6 games were in season 18. mb 5). 6 ways would be stupid at maps like twilight, monsoon... but can work perfectly on a map like silverphine. Maybe add one extra game 6way at silverphine, that would be a bit more fun, but need a balanced point system. I really hated in last season that the players started with points, instead 0 points.

[FML|Mage]

Thank you all again for your posts.  It's actually been pretty interesting to see what the community thinks, and we're rethinking some of our plans currently to try and find the balance between making the community happy and using a workable format for the league.  Stay tuned for more information soon, and feel free to keep posting any suggestions you may have!

[Peregrine]

I am completely against a Timer

Here's why

First of all we are playing the FFA gametype. FFA is about winning at all costs, with no teammate, by any means necessary, against 3+ players trying to do the same. Its not about who is the best at solo, micro, or finishing their opponents within an allotted time limit. Yes sometimes games run long, but thats part of FFA, part of the game we have chosen to play. Want fast action intensive games? Play solo or AT. There are countless games that because of circumstances in the game are forced to run long. Its not always a 3way, and 3ways are not always so bad - they are about balancing power, and players are getting better and better at them, which will make them shorter.

Somtimes, like that semi finals, or even the finals, games will run long. Thats part of our gametype. But take the finals for example: J33, Maga, and Tyrant played an amazing game balancing power that came down to the wire, a timer would have ruined that. Yes the game went over two hours, but the player who played the best that game won in the end. Patience, endurance, and stamina are part of FFA. I agree that timer games could be fun to WATCH, but that is a subgametype. FFA is not a SPECTATOR SPORT. Its a game, for the players. If you haven't noticed, most of the people watching these games are players themselves, so to change the gametype for viewers would undermine the game we are playing. Its like when sports leagues try to change the rules to benefit the viewers and almost always hurt their sport for the players.

Personally, as a player, when I'm IN a game thats running long, I have never worried about the time, only about trying to win. If you do get impatient as a player, thats a weakness. As an observer or even in replays with 8x yes sometimes I get bored, but I know its not about me, its about the players in the game having every strategy at their disposal to win the game. All in all, a timer would favor a certain type of play, which means it would favor a certain type of player, and that would be unfair.

TL,DR: Timers are unfair because they favor a certain type of player and put a restriction on the FREEdom in FREE for all.

As for 6ways, I agree with others that it could be interesting for ONE game, or as a side thing, but like Red said, 4 ways are what make FFA competitive. 6ways would require a lot more games to have a surefire winner that could truly be considered a champion because there would be a far greater variation in the number of winners per season. So not only would it be harder to schedule, it would require 7+ games to find a real winner

For example, the average player would probably win a game only once or maybe twice, the rest being 2-6th place. The best players may only win 3 times out of 6 tries...unless you are Htrt or something

[Valefort]

Instead of an arbitrary timer that could ruin games how about lowering the gold amount in the mines ? -20% on every mine should be effective enough ?