TieBreaker Problem

[Peregrine]

actually my bad i shouldnt have posted that in the semi final thread

I know im not going to change your minds because you guys dont like to admit you're wrong and renaud especially gets defensive even when normally hes a smart guy.

But the tiebreaking rules, as you guys have said, are retarded and bullshit. But instead of acknowledging that and just changing them, you stick to "they were posted, these are the rules, too bad" even though you created them with no input from the community a week ago.

Why? Because its not completely fair to each player. The rule about playing the top 4 is completely arbitrary and stupid because (1) it says 'how well you did' not 'whether you played them' so people who didnt match them like me are screwed and (2) since worpex seeded the first round, and I was one of his so-called 'top seeds' obviously thats one round already where i wouldnt play another 'top seed' all of whom are in the top 4.

Further the second place rule encourages playing for 2nd (see Ugri game) and DarkNess has already covered that. And because this is FFA, the first rule about whoever placed higher in their matchup is also flawed. In sports its 1 team vs another so you can use matchups. But in FFA it doesnt work at all. Its not an indicator of whose better.

All of this would be useless if there wasnt another option but of course there is: play a damn game to determine it. First of all its easy to schedule 1 game, especially with the players in question. (55 pt ppl) Secondly it lets skill determine the outcome. and Thirdly its the most fun way, hypes up the league, and good for the community. Not a hard thing to do at all, it really just seems you guys are disagreeing for the sake of 'well we already made these other rules, which suck, but...we are the ADMINS!"

But I guess if you want people to think "Admin and their arbitrary rules chose the last spots instead of letting them play it out" then cool.

Again now that you posted it, it might be hard to swallow and take it back, but I hope you can do so.

[Ugrilainen]

I know im not going to change your minds because you guys dont like to admit you're wrong and renaud especially gets defensive even when normally hes a smart guy.

But the tiebreaking rules, as you guys have said, are retarded and bullshit. But instead of acknowledging that and just changing them, you stick to "they were posted, these are the rules, too bad" even though you created them with no input from the community a week ago.

Why? Because its not completely fair to each player. The rule about playing the top 4 is completely arbitrary and stupid because (1) it says 'how well you did' not 'whether you played them' so people who didnt match them like me are screwed and (2) since worpex seeded the first round, and I was one of his so-called 'top seeds' obviously thats one round already where i wouldnt play another 'top seed' all of whom are in the top 4.

Further the second place rule encourages playing for 2nd (see Ugri game) and DarkNess has already covered that. And because this is FFA, the first rule about whoever placed higher in their matchup is also flawed. In sports its 1 team vs another so you can use matchups. But in FFA it doesnt work at all. Its not an indicator of whose better.

All of this would be useless if there wasnt another option but of course there is: play a damn game to determine it. First of all its easy to schedule 1 game, especially with the players in question. (55 pt ppl) Secondly it lets skill determine the outcome. and Thirdly its the most fun way, hypes up the league, and good for the community. Not a hard thing to do at all, it really just seems you guys are disagreeing for the sake of 'well we already made these other rules, which suck, but...we are the ADMINS!"

But I guess if you want people to think "Admin and their arbitrary rules chose the last spots instead of letting them play it out" then cool.

Again now that you posted it, it might be hard to swallow and take it back, but I hope you can do so.

Oh man Eshan, I wished you wouldnt post this kind of post.

You can read our discussion on www.ffareplays.com about it.

As for

But I guess if you want people to think "Admin and their arbitrary rules chose the last spots instead of letting them play it out" then cool.

No it's not the goal, I dont think players think we are arbitrary.

And as far as the rules can be good or bad, you didnt complain when they were posted 2 weeks ago. Now after realizing they do not help you, you contest them and blame the admins... see my point?

I agree i probably do not belong there (I see the argument coming that i like the rules cause I am in semis). Winning 1/4 is low. As low as you did. If y.z and w8man wouldnt have missed a game, they would probably have taken the spot. They would deserve it.

And your idea to get a 5 players games where top 3 would advance is just stupid, I'm sorry to say so. Doesnt make any sense at all.

[Ugrilainen]

Also about you complaining about not playing top 4 :

You lost first game : too bad, so did Maga and he si rank 4.

You lost second game : too bad, ofc your dh went berzerk but w8man had probably the game won anyway

You lost round 3 too, then won round 4 with 2 sub and hydro.

In the end, you played no one from the top 8! The highest ranked player you fighted was me, 55 pts as you. All the players who have beaten you failed after to qualify. How in the world would you try to present as an injustice the fact you are not making top 10?

[FML|Renaud]

BWHAHAHAH THIS IS GREAT

ok lets start!

even IF we remove the part in tie breaker where we compare 2nd place vs 3rd place, you still wouldn't qualify because of rule #3, comparing the result vs the top ranking players (1-4), because you din't even have a match vs them (which means your match where easier).  Not only did humanstar have a match vs the top rankers, thats the match he won!  And the reason you din't get matches vs top player?  You din't win your games, AND those game you lost where vs player who lost later

And you say its not your fault you din't play any of the top players.
Really?  It's not your fault you managed to lose despite not going against any one in the top 4?  Actually scratch that, you din't play anyone in the top 8!  Your right, its not your "fault" you lost your games, but you lost. 

And assuming we deside to push the league back by 2 week to let you have your tie break match, how do you want it to work?  There is 5 player and 3 spot.  There is no smart way (that I can think of) to make match(es) with that.    Unless we do that idiotic crap you proposed 1 game with 5 player where 1st/2nd/3rd place gets in (wait... doens't that encourage playing for 2nd (and 3rd) even more?

In my humble opinion, you should suck it up, and start planing for the next season.

[FML|Renaud]

I know im not going to change your minds because you guys dont like to admit you're wrong and renaud especially gets defensive even when normally hes a smart guy.

and you dont like to listen, we did agree that they were wrong and that we would change it, BUT we told you we would do that NEXT season, because changing stuff that happened in the pass is idiotic

[Ugrilainen]

Hmm yeah eshan and truly I know it might be hard to swallow and take it back, but I hope you can do so and prepare for next season.

[Peregrine]

uhh firstly you are going through my situations in the games to defend your rules? Im talking about the rules as they apply to ALL players obviously im mad that they screwed me over, but I also mentioned things that had nothing to do with me like playing for 2nd, etc.

Renaud the playing the top 4 rule is retarded because for the players who lost their first matches and won the last match obviously they likely didn't play top 4. especially if they were top seed first round. Ugri the fact that I didnt play any top 8 is PROOF that the rule is retarded its Swiss style lmfao. PS if I played them maybe they wouldnt be top 8 ;p

You are using subjective cases to justify rules which should apply for ALL cases, regardless of what happened within the game. Of course you can say 'who cares, we are Admin!" and we can do nothing. But thats not what good Admin should do

As for not complaining two weeks ago, I didnt understand how they would affect us two weeks ago! Im not a prophet. Thats like government passing some complicated  law , and then later when it goes into effect telling the common people 'you should have complained earlier before you understood! Too late now!'

And yes you look biased here Ugri considering these rules help you make semi. Renaud you can chill on personally attacking my skills as a player because I'm not doing that to anyone who made it, or to you, who didn't. And as for the alternate option, playing a game,

5 man ffa isnt perfect, but its certainly better than arbitrary rules based on what a few people thought should count towards qualifying. especially when those rules are unfair. and renaud if you READ the post I said it wouldnt take two weeks. It wouldnt even take one week. Seksi and I are free all week, Ugri is ALWAYS on, humanstar is usually on, and honestly since Duck didnt even play 4 matches, Im okay with him making it automatically. So that makes four man FFA.

[Peregrine]

And these posts arent for you as much, because I already know you disagree because you created the rules. Its for other people's input and thoughts. And I didnt post on ffareplays because i hadnt checked, but now that I did, this is still more appropriate.

[FML|Renaud]

Just a quick question

how would a 5 way ffa where the top 3 advance (as in place 1-2-3) not encourage playing for 2nd?  Imo it would encourage it a lot more...

[Peregrine]

yeah it would which is why i originally suggested an 8 man ffa but you shot that down. But first of all you seem to be cool with playing for second because league rules encourage it. and secondly its still a better option than the current tiebreaking rules. And more fun. And more interesting. Not to mention more fair.

[Ugrilainen]

And these posts arent for you as much, because I already know you disagree because you created the rules. Its for other people's input and thoughts. And I didnt post on ffareplays because i hadnt checked, but now that I did, this is still more appropriate.

Yeah but we wanted the other players to see the explanations of our decisions and then judge for themselves if :

1- are admin biased
2- do you deserve a spot in playoff
3- is your solution good (went from a 5 players game where top 3 qualify, to top 2 in a 4 players game). As I play very well for second, I should qualify right?

And yes you look biased here Ugri considering these rules help you make semi.

I will tell you on how I am not biased :
1- The system I proposed and which will be used  next season but enhanced by the discussion we had between admins and players would have kicked me off playoffs. It wasnt taken this season but I would have been fine not being in the semi

2- I'm ok not to play the semi and give my spot if you really want to know : not to a stupid game where top 3 qualifies but to a player who deserves it : w8man

W8man played 3 games. He agreed to change his last game from the hydro/Johny one to the Maga/Pizz one which is remarkable. He losts shortly and didnt complained. He showed skill, class and talent. He lost round 3 after huge teaming.

And fyi, I'm not available all the time, I'll be out of town for 10 days starting on monday.

Last message from me here, ppl will judge who is biased in this chatlog

[FML|Renaud]

ok... and how does having an 8 man ffa where the top 3 advange instead of an 5 man ffa where the top 3 advance encourage playing for 2nd less?

[Peregrine]

see renaud you are just literally being difficult intsead of addressing ANY of the issues at hand. thats why i started off this thread by 'renaud gets defensive...'

ugri the whole point of rules and admins is that we DONT base anything on opinion of who 'deserves it'. thats what fair is about. w8man is remarkably noble and good, and if he had 55 points i would argue for him too. And its good you have a system that you proposed, we'd love to hear it, but if its good why isnt it being used now? Fact is, you are arguing in favor of this broken system because of 2 bias: you are admin, and you are in semi.

reno man, cant really talk explain again to you, i already said last post...4 man or 5man or 8man ffa isnt PERFECT but a much better solution to issue. And seksi and other players agree. I'm pretty sure Ugri would agree if he wasn't guaranteed a spot if he says no lol.

[FML|Renaud]

Wait... i'm being difficult because i'm pointing out flaws in your system, and ... what are you doing again? O_o

ugri the whole point of rules and admins is that we DONT base anything on opinion of who 'deserves it'. thats what fair is about.

Your absolutely right, i agree 100%.  and this is EXACTLY why we don't change the rules until the next season.

And seksi and other players agree

That is interesting, would you mind clarifying who the other players are?  I don't know because I left before the end of the convo yesterday

[Peregrine]

im not trying to call out more players for you to hate, but there were a couple more that agreed. anyway this discussion going no where as i thought i just wanted to air my grievances its clear we wont have a new game, but i wasnt going to be quiet when i thought it was unfair

also i would like to clarify that I dont think Ugri is being biased or trying to do something sneaky, i think he is one of the most upstanding guys around here and cool and always takes the time to listen and respond to what players are saying. have 0 bad thoughts toward him, i was just saying it LOOKs bias because he is defending these broken rules more than anyone, but honestly atleast hes responding fully and logically so thanks ugri wish others would also do so.

and ya reno 5man ffa with 3 continue is not perfect, but i say third time, better than these rules