FML Cup: 10 Days Out!

[Persuade]

1. not quite about balance - but no shredder and retarded lumber placement gives advantage to NE
2. top spawned players experience certain difficulties reaching fountain and. naturally this stop goes to one of bottom players
3. this map is designed the way which promote two 1v1's - one on the each side, I don't think this is right

1.  There is no shredder on many maps, including market/deathrose/deadlock as some big ones.  Macro is another skill FFA players need to utilize. 
2.  This is the only point I will agree with, in the past I have thought about editing the map to include a fountain at the top, or putting it in the center with an entrance on top/bottom. 
3.  Who says this is only a top vs bottom map?  Any player can decide to attack left vs right instead of top vs bottom, seeing as the fountain and best creeps are dictated this way.

Still, we feel it's more balanced than TM.  One of TM's biggest flaws is that there is no "true" natural expansion, and the game can often be decided early, in an unbalanced favor, if someone decides to expand the other way.  It also gives an advantage to players who spawn at the shop (bottom left and top right) as opposed to people who spawn at the merc camps.

We also have to take in ignorance as a factor.  Many players will not be aware that the maps are edited, despite our warnings and the map being available before the match, resulting in many players who will not know TM has no islands, which while small, can lead to some unfavorable scenarios where certain races can creep the corners easier.

[Persuade]

@pers, about wrong expanding on TM - on emerald someone can easily try to get 2 central expands, so that's not really in a favor of emerald

Then that player will be teamed because he has more expansions.  This was a really bad argument, as I could use this excuse on every map.

[GM]

1.  There is no shredder on many maps, including market/deathrose/deadlock as some big ones.  Macro is another skill FFA players need to utilize. 

agree, still it's more about retarded lumber placement, not about shredder - on emerald you need more lumbermills then on market or deadlock

3.  Who says this is only a top vs bottom map?  Any player can decide to attack left vs right instead of top vs bottom, seeing as the fountain and best creeps are dictated this way.

not quite, bc in the end it all comes down to the third expand and it's way easily to fight for it top-bottom - bc it's located closer to one's main and other expands

Still, we feel it's more balanced than TM.  One of TM's biggest flaws is that there is no "true" natural expansion, and the game can often be decided early, in an unbalanced favor, if someone decides to expand the other way.

wait, what about deathrose then?

anybody who played his fair share of FFA knows about "clockwise/counterclockwise agreement" concept

and who does not - well he can harras or be trying to take wrong expand on emerald as well

We also have to take in ignorance as a factor.  Many players will not be aware that the maps are edited, despite our warnings and the map being available before the match, resulting in many players who will not know TM has no islands, which while small, can lead to some unfavorable scenarios where certain races can creep the corners easier.

how do you mean?

[GM]

it's not like I'm judging your decision or anything

[Persuade]

not quite, bc in the end it all comes down to the third expand and it's way easily to fight for it top-bottom - bc it's located closer to one's main and other expands

By that point in the game people will be teaming the strongest anyways, all we're saying is that there is no "set" way to play the map.

wait, what about deathrose then?

anybody who played his fair share of FFA knows about "clockwise/counterclockwise agreement" concept

and who does not - well he can harras or be trying to take wrong expand on emerald as well

On deathrose and emerald you still get a natural.   There is no "natural" expansion on TM and sometimes a player can die without getting a single expansion up. 

how do you mean?

We just want to avoid any complications with the maps in case new players are not aware of the changes.  TM changes are more impactful.

[Persuade]

it's not like I'm judging your decision or anything

I know, I just want people to understand the reasoning why we choose certain maps, and there is a LOT of debate going on behind the scenes.

It takes us a long time to settle on a decision.

[GM]

By that point in the game people will be teaming the strongest anyways, all we're saying is that there is no "set" way to play the map.

after getting second expand up there are no more creeps left in like 2 minutes and by this time you can't say who is the strongest and it's likely 4way still

it's not much left besides fighting for a third exp, which is more convenient to do on the same side you spawned

no really, after second exps are up - only creeps left is red spots and they will be gone quickly

On deathrose and emerald you still get a natural.   There is no "natural" expansion on TM and sometimes a player can die without getting a single expansion up. 

deathrose's "natural" not much easily crept than island on TM

and in a vast majority of games on deathrose natural is side exp, bc it's easier to get, you can't deny that

We just want to avoid any complications with the maps in case new players are not aware of the changes.  TM changes are more impactful.

I think TM even with these changes are far far more familiar to players than emerald

everybody played TM many times if not FFA then solo or 2x2

[Persuade]

after getting second expand up there are no more creeps left in like 2 minutes and by this time you can't say who is the strongest and it's likely 4way still

it's not much left besides fighting for a third exp, which is more convenient to do on the same side you spawned

no really, after second exps are up - only creeps left is red spots and they will be gone quickly

I'd rather see people fight for a 3rd expansion than fight for their 2nd, which happens a lot on TM.

deathrose's "natural" not much easily crept that island on TM

and in a vast majority of game on deathrose natural is side exp, bc it's easier to get, you can't deny that

Human can creep it with level 1 am, 2 foots and 4 militia...?

Fiends/archers also creep this relatively easy, it's probably one of the easiest camps on the map.

I think TM even with these changes are far far more familiar to players than emerald

everybody played TM many times if not FFA than solo or 2x2

One would think.   But then we admins watch these games and make note.  A lot of players in the round 3 of season 16 did not know TM had a pathway to the islands, and they are ffa players...

[GM]

I'd rather see people fight for a 3rd expansion than fight for their 2nd, which happens a lot on TM.

if someone is fighting for 2nd it means other guy is fighting for 3rd 

Human can creep it with level 1 am, 2 foots and 4 militia...?

Fiends/archers also creep this relatively easy, it's probably one of the easiest camps on the map.

only to find out that both of your side exps are taken

deathrose is not that different from FML-TM

[Persuade]

if someone is fighting for 2nd it means other guy is fighting for 3rd 

I will explain this simply.

On twisted meadows, you are not guaranteed an expansion, on emerald you are.  This means the players have a better chance in the long run.  On Twisted meadows you can lose if someone wins an early skirmish and you have no expo while they do.  On Emerald shores you can STILL WIN if you lose an early skirmish due to a guaranteed expo

only to find out that both of your side exps are taken

deathrose is not that different from FML-TM

This makes absolutely no sense.

On Deathrose, you are 100% guaranteed an expo, the lizard camp is easy and can be creeped when your hero pops out.   Guess what, if both your "mid" expos are taken, you already have a secured expo at your natural.  You can then put pressure on someones "middle expo", seeing as it was their "first" expo they will constantly be under pressure while you get free gold uncontested.

If someone also expands the "wrong" way on Deathrose, they get teamed for having more expos.  The map is large and easy to make comebacks, hard to win fast.  TM is the opposite, if someone is aggressive enough they can secure two expos and try to win before people get a chance to team. 

[FML|Renaud]

I will have to partly disagree with the two forced 1v1

For a map to force a 1v1, there must be an uneven number of expo, and so the players are forced to fight for control over it. 

However, on emerald shore, it's pretty simple to agree to share the expansions, and hoard 3 mines at 50, while the others are quickly draining their gold trying to get a 4th mine at 80
3*10 = 30
4*7 = 28
30 > 28
yay for peace!

Of course, that hoarding time is filled with scouting the other side (for a chance to steal easy xp) and your "peaceful" neighbor (because he will stab you as soon as you are not looking, and you should be looking for a chance to stab him when he's not looking)