What I've learned about FFA this past month.

[Dovekie]

Been playing tons and tons of games on the FML bots these last few months, and have been learning a lot about FFA.  So here is my giant wall of text:


The biggest thing that I've learned... and I think its more than just my opinion... is that orc and human are just slightly better than elf and undead.  There is something about orc casters, warstomp & endurance aura, ww + critical strike, heal wave, strong towers, wards, spirit link, etc, that just puts them a little above night elf and undead.  Same with human, though the with human its mainly just the tanks, massive armor, and the mass TP that gives them an edge.  That being said, people seem ready to team orc/human players a little easier so I guess it can also be a curse.  Two things that might make this theory untrue.  One is anti-magic shield, which isn't utilized well enough or enough, and 2 is night elfs rushing potential.  You can have a maxed out night elf army so fast, that unless the human or orc was preparing for you(and even if they were), you can probably kill them.  But the games are adding up where I am fighting orcs or humans that reach an unkillable point that I can't seem to obtain when I am elf or undead.

List of things learned: (FYI this isn't a guide on how to win, for that you should ask better players)
-Unlike 4 man FFA, going to 100 to finish off a player is almost always a bad idea.  Because you are playing with 6-8 people, you should almost always wait until there are 2-4 people left before going 100, unless you want to surprise rush someone good that you think might be a big threat later. 
-I've been trying lots of different hero's and purposefully not using the Dark Ranger very much, but honestly she is just so good.  But I would only choose her for elf and maybe orc.  UD should stick to DL and humans need the MK and Pally. Silence + hex + stomp might be the best combo in FFA, at least to winning large army battles. 
-Undead-- I don't understand how anyone could not go dk/lich/dl.  The only reason I wouldn't is if I didn't think I could get an infernal.  But if I don't think I'm gonna get an infernal, I obviously am not planning on winning, but I'm always planning on winning (planning), so I always get dl. Sleep works as a good enough silence for me, but carrion/nova is just so important for hit and run crippling attacks if you are behind, that you can't go without him.
-Undead has the most "tricks". On non tavern maps, you can, almost with a certainty, kill any nightelf with pure garg 1 frostie.  This is also convenient because you can also kill any undead with the same army.  You can straight tech gargs and kill mass air creeps, giving you a level 5 dk in the first few minutes. 
-Armor is better than you think.
-Hipporiders are better than you think.  With roar + level 3 aura they are tanky, bloodlusted, long ranged wyverns.
-Mass teleport is better than you think. (Hard to imagine o.O, but if people could multitask perfectly, it should be almost an auto win, with enough tanks and gryphs)
-Human army kills things the slowest.  Gryphons aren't the greatest, neither are knights.  Rifles don't do much damage.  Tanks do low damage and need time to kill stuff.  Heros become super tanky but never achieve killing speed of orc or ud.
-Night elf has access to the greatest explosion army.  By this I mean you can make the enemies entire ground disappear (excluding tanks) or their entire air disappear in the time it takes for a tp scroll to finish casting.  Pure chims or pure hippos are sometimes the only things that can kill the enemies army, but then afterward you have a giant weakness to either mass ground or mass air.
-As a night elf player, there are some armies that a human can make that you actually have no chance of beating unless you chose the right hero's and they are high enough levels.  When the Tank count reaches enough to take care of any air you have, and he has enough gryphons to take out any bear threat you have, and his heros can negate yours, then you lose.  You need a high level DH, Panda, AMS potm, tinker, in order to be able to beat them, and usually a combination of two of these.
-When in doubt, summon your 3 RoC hero's (replacing the FS with the SH).
Human = AM/MK/Pally.  Just perfect.  Has everything Human needs.  Mobility, surivability, damage, stun, massive mana regen.
Orc = BM/TC/SH.  Once again, has everything you need.  Completely absurd damage, ridiculous disables (I mean RIDICULOUS), and amazing heal.
Elf = DH/KOTG/POTM.  Sometimes we feel we need to get the panda or the dark ranger, and then we wonder why we are losing to mass tanks or we just can't kill the enemy at his base, but then we choose these hero's, that lets us have access to a sweet disable/hold, metamorphosis(aka battle winner), starfall(aka battle winner), tranquility, great aura, best scout, mana burn, high armor, and all of a sudden we win a game that we couldn't have with a panda/dr.  You lose your ability to fight mass air as well, but stick an AMS potion on your potm and starfall next to their base with mass chippo and now you are the one thats getting teamed.
Undead = DK/Lich/DL.  Mobility, crippling potential, crazy nuke, best aoe stun behind a blink dagger tc, nova, nova, death and decay, and nova.

Nearly unbeatable armies exist in my opinion.  But only a few and they are situational.  Here's what I can think of/have faced/have used or lost to.

orc v ud: 100 food orc army vs undead with BM/TC/SH or DR/TC/SH.  Tri caster, kodo, couple tauren, and mass wyverns/bat or zerkers + bat.  It is quite literally unbeatable.  Some sort of AMS abuse/ infernal drop/ sh sleep/ giant nuke on the dps portion of their army/ flank hit/ 5 hit and run nukes before the actual battle, and you might have 40/60 odds, but only if you out level their heros and have more gold in the bank.

Mass undead air against elf on non tavern maps, especially if they dont have a warden/ lvl6 potm.  Very hard to screw this up.

Balanced tank/priest/gryhpon army against an elf that doesn't have the right heros.  Elf ground just isn't good enough unless his heros can make up the work.  Air will get killed by the tanks if there are enough.

Chippo vs orc can sometimes be unbeatable if the elf has decent gold advantage.  Unless the orc can produce enough bats, he can be overrun.  Especially with use of heal scrolls/tranquility/scroll of prot, 10 chims just wcreck anything the orc can make, and hippos vs wyvern is a joke.




BUT all this being said, it is remarkable how balanced FFA can be.

[Meeds]

I wont comment everything you said, but all you said looks relevant to me and interesting. Thanks for this analysis, and I agree with you, FFA is very balanced, and the main reason is teaming/manipulating/hiding/lying that can give you the victory even if you are not supposed to win.

[Persuade]

I've learned that whoever gets the easier tome has a better chance of winning

[Pinballmap]

Im a bit confused about some statements of you like

-Armor is better than you think.

?! Are you talking about the armor upgrades or that i should stack my heroes with armor rings? not sure what you wanna say with that.


and

Mass teleport is better than you think.

We all  know that its a joke spell since the first days of FFA :D

[Persuade]

-Undead-- I don't understand how anyone could not go dk/lich/dl.  The only reason I wouldn't is if I didn't think I could get an infernal.  But if I don't think I'm gonna get an infernal, I obviously am not planning on winning, but I'm always planning on winning (planning), so I always get dl. Sleep works as a good enough silence for me, but carrion/nova is just so important for hit and run crippling attacks if you are behind, that you can't go without him.

Sleep can be useless vs good elves, since abolish can knock it out instantly, it is however extremely good in controlling a mirror fight.  Silence can have more of an impact vs some armies/players than sleep can, which is why DR is seen picked a lot third.

-Undead has the most "tricks". On non tavern maps, you can, almost with a certainty, kill any nightelf with pure garg 1 frostie.  This is also convenient because you can also kill any undead with the same army.  You can straight tech gargs and kill mass air creeps, giving you a level 5 dk in the first few minutes. 

Level 5 DK has no impact in air fights, lich is the key here... I'm confused on these "tricks".  If an elf plays a map without a tavern he will probably lore rush you, in which case gargs will be too slow.  You need a destroyer more than a frosty btw, or else entangle will destroy you.

-Armor is better than you think.

Assuming you mean stacking armor, it really isnt...  The only circumstance I can see armor being good is vs all orcs, which never happens.  Most races depend on a strong nuke, in which case armor is completely useless.  There's a reason most players sell all rings in favor of periapts.

-Hipporiders are better than you think.  With roar + level 3 aura they are tanky, bloodlusted, long ranged wyverns.

Long range wyverns with 50% the dps. Better to spend 1 more food and get a chim, it's also a different tech path and requires a ton of resources to do both.  The only time riders are good is in a rush, in which case afterwards you need to get rid of them asap.

-Mass teleport is better than you think. (Hard to imagine o.O, but if people could multitask perfectly, it should be almost an auto win, with enough tanks and gryphs)

Better than who thinks?  It's common knowledge that mass tp is the best spell in ffa, and it's pretty good in solo too.

-Human army kills things the slowest.  Gryphons aren't the greatest, neither are knights.  Rifles don't do much damage.  Tanks do low damage and need time to kill stuff.  Heros become super tanky but never achieve killing speed of orc or ud.

Ever seen air get ripped apart by slow + tanks + blizzard? Also 50 gyros can kill any amount of air in mere seconds.  Pally/mk can solo an undead army by itself.  But you are right, gryphs/knights/rifles are terrible.

[Lightweight]

Stop to manip against me at 5 minute mark when you have 2 expands while i have one only because you dont feel comfortable fighting me. You seem to be a player that has air to get better, no need for such cheap things. I want to respect you, but i cant when you behave like the other haters on the bot! peace out.

[Ugri2]

Stop to manip against me at 5 minute mark when you have 2 expands while i have one only because you dont feel comfortable fighting me. You seem to be a player that has air to get better, no need for such cheap things. I want to respect you, but i cant when you behave like the other haters on the bot! peace out.

talking to dovekie here? or wrong thread?

[Lightweight]

Yes

[Dovekie]

Stop to manip against me at 5 minute mark when you have 2 expands while i have one only because you dont feel comfortable fighting me. You seem to be a player that has air to get better, no need for such cheap things. I want to respect you, but i cant when you behave like the other haters on the bot! peace out.

I didn't really get any mine out of them and I'm not sure I understood everything you just said.  Anyways gg, next time I want die to rifles like a noob.

[Dovekie]

Sleep can be useless vs good elves, since abolish can knock it out instantly, it is however extremely good in controlling a mirror fight.  Silence can have more of an impact vs some armies/players than sleep can, which is why DR is seen picked a lot third.

Yeah but infernal/carrion/hero wars/vamp aura puts the DL on top for me.

Level 5 DK has no impact in air fights, lich is the key here... I'm confused on these "tricks".  If an elf plays a map without a tavern he will probably lore rush you, in which case gargs will be too slow.  You need a destroyer more than a frosty btw, or else entangle will destroy you.

Level 5/6 DK has an enormous impact vs elf.  The extra move speed lets you get off nova/carrions before you fight.

Assuming you mean stacking armor, it really isnt...  The only circumstance I can see armor being good is vs all orcs, which never happens.  Most races depend on a strong nuke, in which case armor is completely useless.  There's a reason most players sell all rings in favor of periapts.

Just armor in general.  Devotion aura, rings of 4 or 5 armor, armor upgrades, armor scrolls, inner fire.  Once it adds up, things just don't die so easily.  The opposite is true as well.  Acid bomb/ faerie fire/ ud orb.

Long range wyverns with 50% the dps. Better to spend 1 more food and get a chim, it's also a different tech path and requires a ton of resources to do both.  The only time riders are good is in a rush, in which case afterwards you need to get rid of them asap.

do you mean 50% more dps?  They have the same dps unbuffed, because their attack speed is literally double.  With roar/aura they have almost double, because attack speed scales better.  And yeah they are situational, but less situational than people think. 

Ever seen air get ripped apart by slow + tanks + blizzard? Also 50 gyros can kill any amount of air in mere seconds.  Pally/mk can solo an undead army by itself.  But you are right, gryphs/knights/rifles are terrible.

50 gyros is over 4 control groups and over 4k gold/ 1.5k lumber.  Its the best AA, but isn't as practical, and they die by the 10.

[Persuade]

Level 5/6 DK has an enormous impact vs elf.  The extra move speed lets you get off nova/carrions before you fight.

You said rushing an elf and air fights, in which case the lich/dl are level 1.  You can't make up a scenario and then change it to meet your hypothetical situation. 

Just armor in general.  Devotion aura, rings of 4 or 5 armor, armor upgrades, armor scrolls, inner fire.  Once it adds up, things just don't die so easily.  The opposite is true as well.  Acid bomb/ faerie fire/ ud orb.

And as I said, it's only good vs orc.  Try massing armor vs undead with tri nuke, let's see how far you get.  Theorycrafting doesn't work.

do you mean 50% more dps?  They have the same dps unbuffed, because their attack speed is literally double.  With roar/aura they have almost double, because attack speed scales better.  And yeah they are situational, but less situational than people think. 

24.5 vs 23.6 on unbuffed in favor of wind rider.   Factor in 55% dmg from roar and trueshot (even though 50% of the time people will dispel roar) and riders have 36.6 dps.  Factor in 55% attack speed from lust/endurance and 20% dmg from kodo...  Wind riders do 53.6 dps.  Sure as hell looks like around 50% more dps to me.  Then when you realize elf has bad dispel capabilities, and ud has heal wave + spirit link....

If you want to lose, go ahead and make hippo riders.

50 gyros is over 4 control groups and over 4k gold/ 1.5k lumber.  Its the best AA, but isn't as practical, and they die by the 10.

then 36 gyros and it's not hard to use 3 control groups to attack move.

[Ugri2]

for ud its easy and there is no dabte to me :

dk lich dl : THE BEST! vs ud / ne
dk lich dr : THE BEST! vs orc / hu

when i dont fool aropund with funky heroes, i make up my mind for the 3rd hero considering which races are the most represented in my game or whoever race seems to be the more threatening.

quick example : sleeping one human hero while you can silence 3 + casters : no debate.

also an asleep paladin just do not heal for a bit. it gets shielded when you hit it.
A silenced paladin you can fucking nuke it and kill it / make it staffed... but then you can kill anything else.

[Dovekie]

?? I guess I didn't explain things very clearly.

You said rushing an elf and air fights, in which case the lich/dl are level 1.  You can't make up a scenario and then change it to meet your hypothetical situation.

I think we are talking about 2 different games here.  One is your 4man ffa, with 4 good players.  Mine is 8 man pub ffa, with 2-4 good players, and 4-6 clueless.  My "rush" is one with 80 food of gargs and 3 heros that have crept out all the good spots because of the early gargs.  I don't know about this hypothetical situation you speak of, but I know about real situations and you can look at my replays.

And as I said, it's only good vs orc.  Try massing armor vs undead with tri nuke, let's see how far you get.  Theorycrafting doesn't work.

Armor works against everything that isn't spells.  Races other than orc build units. Chims, hippos, frost wyrms, gargs, gryphons, tanks, heros auto attacks, an every other unit in the game.  Armor is good, very good. If your hero has more than 1000 hp, a ring of protection +3 will provide more EHP against nonspells attacks than a periapt would. So basically against most everything except bolt/BoF/blizzard/clap and undead nuke.  Rings +4 and +5 even more so, and especially if your hero has higher hp, armor will be even more of a benefit. A 1,200 hp hero will gain 360ehp(thats a lot) from a ring +5, which is over double what a periapt would give.  Its not theorycraft, its math, and that is what Warcraft III's engine runs on. On top of that, it is also more practical and efficient to use healing on higher armored units/heros.  And why would I mass armor vs nuke if I can mass periapts?  I feel like you are just trying to argue with me. Honestly.

24.5 vs 23.6 on unbuffed in favor of wind rider.   Factor in 55% dmg from roar and trueshot (even though 50% of the time people will dispel roar) and riders have 36.6 dps.  Factor in 55% attack speed from lust/endurance and 20% dmg from kodo...  Wind riders do 53.6 dps.  Sure as hell looks like around 50% more dps to me.  Then when you realize elf has bad dispel capabilities, and ud has heal wave + spirit link....

You mean orc has spirit link + heal wave?  I wouldn't make hipporiders vs orc.  I have no idea where you got that from?  Maybe because I compared them to wyverns you thought I meant vs orc? I would use them against ud and situationally against the other 3 races.  As far as the DPS compared to wyverns, you should at least compare them to how they fare against undead, as that is where they are best used.  Wyverns with bloodlust deal more damage than hipporiders, yes, but so does anything with bloodlust.  A good orc army with a solid amount of wyverns just eats up the undead army, even with bloodlust constantly being devoured/dispelled.  I am simply stating that hipporiders are also very good at this(beating up an undead army).  And buffed, hipporiders have higher dps than kodo'd/aura'd unlusted wyverns(36.6 vs 33.8), more hp, more armor, more range, and the ability to become a hippogryph to free up food/become better aa.  I usually don't feel very comfortable making them too often unless I can find some aura items like endurance/unholy/drums, so they do get pretty freaking strong when I do opine to use them.

then 36 gyros and it's not hard to use 3 control groups to attack move.

Is this an argument?



Sorry if we got off on a bad foot, I will try and be more clear when I explain things in the future here.

[Meeds]

I agree about armor being far too much underestimated, if armor were useless, ud orb would not be so imba and players won't spend money to improve units armor.

Alch for example is a very weak hero because he has only 1 armor, but lot of hp, but useless hp when you have 1 armor.

[Persuade]

Dovekie,

My issue comes from the fact that you appear to be giving people advice, but when I try to tell you why it doesn't work you change your original statement.

You said riders are good, and now you say only vs undead, then you say I can't calculate lust (which is unrealistic because every orc goes lust) while you use level 3 trueshot and roar.  Seems you keep changing it so your argument is right.

As for armor thing, this could have been avoided if you just clarified in your original statement.  Most people know a single ring +5 gives more added benefit than stacking health, but from your original statement you made it sound like armor was more significant.


The gyro thing was based on your statement of "killing speed" by hu, nothing more.  You said gyros were impractical, which really isn't true at all if we're talking pub ffas. I'd love to hide behind 40 towers and just go around the map vs 4-6 bad players and just get massive levels from melting all air.

If you had structured your original post to explain better this whole thing could have been avoided, I'm not trying to pick an argument it's just some of your points make no sense.