It is interesting to read this debate on the difference between FML and anonymous ladder. I have for a long time wanted to discuss the views on competitive FFA because there is a room of contestation between players that favor “anonymous ladder” and players that favor FML.
First of all, I find it interesting that we can all agree on certain things:
• FML and ladder cannot be compared because the playstyle is very different.
• Winning a FML game requires a different skill set than anonymous ladder games. NOTE: IT is unclear what this different skill set encompasses. I personally think Dovekie gave some good points on the deceptive style a player has to adapt to win FML games.
• Being dominate is not good enough to win FML games.
We disagree on:
• If FML requires better FFA skills than anonymous ladder to win.
• The viewpoint that 4-way games create the best competitive FFA games.
My analytical observations (viewpoints) from here on:
Breaking it down: What does it take to be an excellent FML and an excellent anonymous ladder player? I would argue that you can divide FFA skills into three categories of FFA mechanics (basics), FFA sense (decision-making) and third: ability to take strategic advantage.
1. I would say the basics (mechanics) of FFA is: micro, macro, timings, strategies for each race, gold management.
2. On top of that we have skills of FFA sense (related to decision-making): Your decision-making depends on the information you get and how you can analyze it. This means Scouting, estimating gold of opponents, knowing who is ahead (in hero levels and gold) and who to hit in order to increase your chances of winning the game. This also means knowing how FFA is different in formats when you play FFA in 4-ways, 6-ways, 8-ways, 10-ways, 12-ways, and ofc also how you should play in 3-ways, 5-ways, 7-ways etc. here you will see someone is left alone or someone is getting teamed.
And then we have a third feature of FFA skills.
3. This is the arts of manipulation and the ability to find strategic ways to win games. Often times you will see that the clever players with the best decision-making and strategic thinking wins competitive ffa games because they know how to avoid teaming, and when to take advantage of a given situation, when to play aggressive and when to play passive etc. In any case it is a huge task for a caster or outsider to see these aspects of FFA if you don’t have the player experience. These are the 3 central layers that translates into FFA player skills overall I think, but I continue to find new layers of FFA whenever I lose or learn something. This may lead to a fourth point of knowledge and anticipation, but I will leave these 3 for now as the central features of a skilled FFA player.
In my opinion FML games are often decided by what I would categorize as the 3rd state of a FFA skill set (the art of manipulation and taking strategic advantages).
The games consist often of manipulation (understood as deceiving other players into thinking that you are weaker than you actually are), coordination, chatting and teaming where players try to find strategic ways to fool their opponents and take the advantage at the final point of the game. FML games are truly about taking strategic advantage of the situation and manipulating your opponents in the 3-way, which requires a deep knowledge of FFA as well as an understanding of the other player’s playstyle. This is not to say that the 1st And 2nd feature of a strong FFA player does not matter in FML games, but they are often not sufficient to win games as other players will team and focus the player that is not aware of the art of manipulation.
Anonymous ladder In the anonymous ladder there is more room for basic domination related to the 1st and 2nd feature of skilled FFA players. It is here where you can secure yourself a strong advantage, but you will also have to be able to scout and find out the skill level of the other players in the game and what they are up to. The anonymous ladder requires a high level of skill also, but it does (in my opinion) require a playstyle adoption to the 3rd feature of skilled FFA player (at least not as much). This is not to say that the art of manipulation and taking strategic advantages does not matter – it still matters a great deal. Recall for example htrt who would use his anonymity to pretend to be “weaker” than he actually is as a player, and then when the time was right punish the other good players for revealing their true skills.
The reason why the art of manipulation and taking strategic advantages does not apply so often to anonymous ladder games is because there is a lot of “FFA noobs” that may not be aware of the dynamics of FFA or speak English very well, so you have to be careful with using too much chat.
Some have argued that anonymous ladder is “easier than FML” because it requires less skills to win. I would contest this view based on the argument that it is not easy to become #1 rank winner when competing with other skilled FFA players. It is obviously easier to get a high win rate and dominate in some of the games, but the chaotic nature of anonymous ladder is very challenging because it requires excellent scouting and anticipation skills. There is less focus on teaming and chatting here, but coordination often happens in the 3-way where players will try manipulate and take strategic advantages to win.
Personal preference: What are the best play formats 3-way, 4-way, 6-way, 8-way, 10-way 12-way etc. I strongly disagree with the view that 4-ways create the best format for competitive FFA games. In my opinion it is a matter of preference and player style. If you like FML games where the art of manipulation and taking strategic advantage of the situation you will probably favor 4-ways. Most of the players that like to dominate and play strongly (like myself who do not like to play the “weak” card of manipulation) will often not find this format enjoyable as you get no advantage from winning your 1on1 (as my game with j33, tleilaxu and Jaod is a good example of). I therefore prefer 6-ways or 8-ways as a competitive format because these are more chaotic and less coordinated teaming will happen against stronger players that like to dominate. 4-way example: IF a player that is regarded as strong is matched up with 3 weak micro players it usually does not end well for him as their interest is to balance the dominate player and keep him in check. Thus, it will be harder for the strong player if he plays the best to his fullest and try to dominate - he is usually focused all the game and has therefore little to no room for hoarding, pretending weak or using other schemes to his advantage unless the other players do not scout well. These kind of games favor playstyles where a player loses fights on purpose, manipulate, make worse heroes on purpose or fool the other players to win.
Further Questions to the FFA strategists:
What does it take to be an excellent player at handling 3-ways? In my opinion this is the trickiest format to play because it is super complicated (theory-wise) as the 3-way often is a balance of powers and it is difficult to determine who is going to win it in the end (therefore also the most interesting final of FFA to watch in my opinion).
How do we stay on top of the 3-way game and the balance of powers? Should a player go for tricks to confuse players and switch the teaming on purpose (like losing army, bases and allowing ourselves to be weakened on purpose). Should we play patiently and passively or should we spent our gold on purpose? This is just an example of the theory behind FFA that makes it a great game.
Yaws suggested that we could organize a high class ffa game every 4 weeks with price money. Personally I think this is a great idea. It is something that has been on my mind since Mage became inactive and left a void. We should continue this tradition of show matches/leagues with top players.
Current status of FFA competitively organized activity:
Big FFA tournaments:
• Ugri has announced that he is hosting a ffa tournament that will probably be an open tournament for anyone that wants to compete. I am not sure exactly when it will be and would therefore like some updates on that.
Competitive leagues for our community of skilled FFA players:
• Ponty and DV created the sympo league that created a competitive format for us FFA players in a time where FML was not active.
(New) The vacuum of show matches / leagues for top players after Mage inactivity:
• We should expand on the possibility to host/organize show matches with top FFA players competing with solo players. This format could use prize money as a motivation to create interest among solo players if needed. I would work on this with Yaws (and perhaps Mage?) and organize these show matches or leagues. If somebody is willing to participate in organizing these events, feel free to come with suggestions/ideas.
On prize money:
Prize money will probably not be necessary to make the ffa players of our community participate, but it may create a competitive interest in winning with money on the line.
Prize money may be needed if we are to recruit guests (top solo players) to the matches. I know Mage has been in contact with some of the solo players on skype. I will need some help with networking with the solo players as I only have yaws as contact.
Streamers:
• I would be willing to cast these show matches on FFAmasters @twitch to make it interesting with guest casters. Hopefully we can get other streamers to participate such as Wtiii and Yaws.
Contact with solo players:
• We can start with finding a date (or make a schedule on FFAmasters if necessary) and ask the top players of the ffa community and solo community if they are able to play.
• I assume that Mage has contacts with the solo players. I need some kind of way to contact players such as cechi, hawk, Tod, Grubby etc. so I will need some help with networking.
Further work with organizing FFA events:
• I Would like to see show matches develop into some sort of league format with price money on the line. It could be something like FML with a series of show matches and a winner.
If we are doing this I think we should stick to themes and concrete situations (examples).
I would for example be interested to hear your thoughts on the differences between "ffarena ladder" and "FML" as a gametype.
Other than that it would be more interesting to talk strategies in relation to certain FFA playtypes: 4-way, 6-way, 8-way, 10-way, 12-way. The more specific it can get - like creeping patterns on certain maps for FML or ffarena - would be really helpful.
The big challenge question I have for the FFA strategists concerns how you can achieve succes in FML games or ladder? To me these two game types are so different that it does not make sense to talk as if they are the same. Moreover, I think a lot of players (like me) struggle with certain game types (my problem is 4-ways where it turns into a 3-way fast and teaming of strong players).
What does it take to be excellent ffa player that can win in both FML and ladder games? Take it away.
I vote for regame. I don't think my vote should "matter" though as I was not present in the scheduling thread.
Anyway, sweet, seksi and j33 have all said it would be fair to remake so lets make it happen. I was expecting to play a ffa game with a strong cast and we should make it happen.
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