FFA Masters League
League => League Discussion => Topic started by: FML|WorpeX on December 21, 2011, 09:22:59 pm
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:FMLN:
Sadly, after the events of M28, two players have been found cheating and will immediately be removed from the league. :USA: DarkMessiah and :Canada: Walking.TrL were found pre-teaming before the match and continued to follow up on their plan DURING the game. Thus, the two players have immediately been removed from the league for the remainder of the season.
Eshan: Hey man. You and I have had our differences...but we are going to be playing a game together, and if we are neighbors I wouldnt want any bad feelings between us. So I thought Id send you this link to a really cool website. Tell me if you like it :) http://knightstemplar.tv/symbols-of-peace.html
Walking: Hah. This PM + Your posts on Q/rain game = instant win.
Eshan: Lol times be changing, gotta adapt. Much rather you than ebo, and SS was less likely to agree. Rather let him solo ebo out if they are near each other. What say you?
Walking.TrL: Obviously. but if you backstab I suicide Putting a lot of faith into you......
Eshan: lol...we can also not do it if you want. i figured we can settle our beef in an epic 1v1 like reno/Q did. let SS do what he does. peaceful coexistence. im putting my faith into you too. especially trusting that rabbit wont say anything cause i know you would tell him.
Eshan: so now that ebos in our game ppl keep saying you will own him again... i hate ebo. hes a crap player that get by on luck and on noobs letting him manip. if u spawn near him i will not stop u from killin him and i will make sure he cant rebuild. if i spawn near him i will try to take him out also so dont hit me ok? after hes gone we dont have to peace just want him dead. if me and you spawn near each other hopefully we can go other way :). but i will be rdy in case u rush! but dont rush me cuz on this map we will miss the good items/expos/creeps ! not trying to preteam but just wanted to give u my thoughts before game
Walking: Your presumptions hurt me :( Just no PMing
Eshan: k dude your brief, sort of semi noncommitting answers worry me. do you want to or not...yes no? not gonna be the idiot that peaces only to be screwed...lol ur call u know im down
Walking: Hah. Yes we are going to peace from the start and hoard and get 1 or 2 and team out the moron ebo and the soloist star. I like you Eshan.
Eshan: aw i like you too walking. trust me babe i dont do this with every ffa-er i meet.
Walking: 16/f/cali. U?
Walking: You whore! http://i41.tinypic.com/1grkbb.jpg
Eshan: yep he rejected the offer foolishly wait are u guys pming also? lololol this is hilarious hahahaha
Walking: No but he wanted to warn me. I never told him you sent me anything. So peace right?
Eshan: hahahaha nice one, yeah peace. i think this is my first and last game trying this. dont have the knack for all this statesmanship
Walking: Unless you win, then its this every game ;)
The evidence is indisputable and i'd say that the replay is too... but it was a save game. Replacement players are still TBA.
We thank both players for participating.
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Also, Ugri wrote a description of what happened after the save game:
What happened :
- Starshaped proposed that everyone go 100 in the middle and fight. He was 80 with one expo, walking and eshan at 50 with one expo for eshan and two for walking
- No one moved, starshaped realized that at the point of the save they were hoarding while he ws 80. He was the lowest on gold also (9k vs 18 and 20 k). He decides to hit walking unprotected expo. Walking chase him away with heroes.
THEN
Walking and Eshan pump 100 at the same time. At this point, SS has two main base : his castle and prod building unprotected and his last expo which ran out of money with lot of towers.
Eshan sieges the towered one while Walking destroys SS castle and prod buildings. SS main dies to Walking while he defends against Eshan.
THEN
Walking hits SS from north side while Eshan does it from South. They do it until SS is completely annihilated.
FINALLY
SS leaves insulting them.
SS : you both dicks, kill yourselves
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Eshan : that felt dirty, like rly disgusting lol
Walking : in a good way, like a good old clan fury use
Eshan : no in a bad way, like lone preteaming
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this is pathetic, post the message i sent darkness. are you serious? like are you really serious? i try to help this league because i care about FFA and instead you BAN me?
and if you READ OUR PM CHAT you will see we didnt preteam at ALL in the game. we only decided to finally team up in the end, after 3 hours, vs a guy who had trirace, mass tower, charm harrass, and was hoarding.
thats basis for teaming in ANY game with any players. you didnt do anything to the people who actually teamed throughout full games, but im your scapegoat? your sacrificial lamb?
really unfair man, really.
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we spent 9 fml season without much troubles and major contestations.
After your game vs Q and reno you wanted to prove that the preteaming was possible, and pretended to help the league.
You dont help by trying to ruin something in order to prove it is ruinable.
When there were no witness around anymore, you enforced the preteam you agreed on with walking, and even laugh about it in the end.
I was supposed to be afk but hanged around to see if SS was lagging. Then I saw what you guys were doing and stayed.
I'm not happy you two are out but after worpex caught your pm with walking, we were being very cautious with your game.
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Now I know little of the situation, but if renauds comment on the other site is true
"he problem lies with what happened after the rehost (the save was at the 40 min mark) "
That is not preteaming. According to you guys that would be the same situation as rain and Q vs me which to you was not cheating.
I strongly urge the admins to undo the ban. I really don't feel like quitting wc3 again as sc2 is just boring.
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thank you RSM. Next post I will post the message I sent to darkness so all can read it. also let me just repeat what i said to ugri/renaud on garena chat
I did the PM thing to try to see if people would preteam - only walking agreed, but i didnt trust him anyway because he admitted to messaging with ebo also
i sent a message to admins stating what i was doing - trying to see if this preteam trend really exists.
Game starts - i always play to win. I focus on game only. that PMing was simply done to try and get ebo and walking to preteam together. NOT for me and any of them. I never cheat, never have, never will, in all my years of WC3. Everyone on this site knows me. Many dislike me, but none can say im a cheater - and ive been against preteaming on ffareplays for so long.
So in the game SS tells me to take out ebo while he fights walking (in PM). So i base ebo and kill him, enjoying it very much.
Then an hour long 3way happens where we all try to PM each other. During this, SS gets triple race, mass towrs, and hoards. And he has the best micro. And he hits me while walking doesnt (all this can be seen in the replay on ffareplays.)
Then we disconnect and rehost with Ugri as the only Obs. After a few minutes, SS masses towers again, kills walkings expo, and starts charm harrassing both of us. Thats enough to tip the scales and me and walking decide to team him out. He is the strongest, best micro, triple race, hoarded, mass tower on market square. I know I can beat walking in 1v1 so I agree.
In some pretty ugly teaming, we kill SS. Then I beat walking in 1v1. After SS dies, I say 'that was disgusting' because I felt bad about teaming him out like that. Not because we were preteaming
THERE WAS NO PRETEAMING. After 1.5 hours I team with the UD who HAPPENS to be Walking to kill the strong guy who attacked me. Anyone would do the same in that situation. It was based solely on in game circumstances, and in-game private messages. We did not preteam.
In a 3way i have 2 options, team with the UD or team with the HU. 50% chance. game circumstances made it better to choose the UD, and clearly i made the correct choice because i won.
But now admins think I preteamed because of those previous messages? Even when its clear why i sent them, and what was happening? I was open every step of the way and I was trying to help this league. Its like something out of a story where the guy who tries to help gets screwed over, right when he thought he won.
I admit I am upset if Im banned from FML. I enjoy FFA a lot, and this league is the best thing that has happened to it. I have invested enormous time into this league and this game, and i never have cheated. And i always play to win. We have former cheaters in this league, we have relatives, we have suiciders, we have clanmates. But Im the one who gets banned?
I please request the admins to atleast give some thought to reconsidering, I would really appreciate it. I'm not the kind of guy who will simply get mad and curse you out and leave like other people did (who you took back). Or like that joke account Al Pacino. I honestly care about this league which is why im upset and why im trying so hard to change your minds.
If anyone read all that thank you for taking the time.
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Here is the message i sent to admin. I was trying to be dramatic and 'set the stage' but obviously this has backfired by making them think I was tricking them? even though I had no idea they had seen the PMs until after - so what reason would I have to tell them if I truly was trying to preteam? :
(No subject)
« Sent to: FML|DarKNeSSCaLLs on: Today at 09:20:20 AM » ReplyQuoteDelete
In anticipation of my game I've done a little bit of 'manipping' via PMs, etc, in order to induce preteaming. Given the current climate of our league, I feel its very likely that people will take up the pregame alliances and/or PM-teaming within game that could eventually ruin FML. Namely, keep an eye out for Ebo and Walking to try and make sure SS and/or I fall before truly engaging each other. Now it may never fully materialize given how chaotic an FFA can be, depending on spawns (and on whether I rush ebo/walking out to make sure I don't get teamed). But its very likely.
If it happens I'll give my evidence as to how I know it was a pre-game alliance, but till then lets see if they succeed. It won't be decisive evidence, but once you admins have a look, it might be considerable enough. Just wanted to mention it BEFORE the game so it doesn't seem like I'm simply whining because I got teamed, or that I made anything up. :)
A lot of people say this is a gray area because theoretically the players are simply doing what was in their interest within the game to succeed, but in actuality, these alliances are giving certain players distinct advantages right from the start of the game. At first its just low-micro players like Ebo, Q, rabbit etc that can do it, because other players are willing to risk peacing them. But soon high micro guys will do it too, like Duck/rebuke, or even me if i have to. Then FFA might stop being what we used to love and turn into something ugly.
If it does happen I hope it shows that maybe some actions should be taken to ensure pregame alliances are limited. Ugri asked earlier what I would do to ensure this, and I don't really know myself, but all the admins are smart so I'm sure we can figure it out.
If it doesn't I will happily admit I was wrong and overreacting and being paranoid and troubling you for no reason! :)
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Thank you Eshan, we will keep your posts in mind and re-evaluate this whole thing.
I am curious to hear Walking's side.
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I remember getting a PM more or less asking to pre-team and I just said I don't swing that way.
Anyway, if they are both banned, what happens to the results of the game we played? Do they change at all?
Quite frankly, I think it's completely useless in situations like this to replay the game from a saved game that was 40+ minutes old. Either replay entirely if there is no recent save, or just go by points.
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good ban, theres a couple of more trash in this league that can use a kick
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thank you worpex, that is all i can ask
given my current situation i know i have little influence, so really i just am hoping that the admins give a fair re-evaluation
i honestly care about this league and i was really trying to help it from what i thought was a potential corruption
in the game i was simply playing for win with no preteaming. only normal teaming after 1.5 hours. did something truly wrong happen - was there really cheating? or just some ugly teaming?
i appreciate you takin the time to reevaluate it
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And just to clear it up, there have been massive exaggerations. BEFORE the disc I had managed to crawl back from worst position to a large bank with ~130 food (charm + staff) and mass towers.
AFTER the disc, when the regame was played (~40 mins back in time), I suggested to 100 food fight and get it over with quickly, but they were both just silent. I scanned both and remembered that at this point in time they were both 50 food and I was at 80 with by far the least gold (which is what prompted me to remove peons from gold and spam towers in the first place). Since nobody replied to me I assumed they were teaming already, but I decided to try and change it up by attacking the 2 easy UD expos to try and force him to break upkeep. At this point I hadn't charmed anything or touched the elf in any way. while killing the UD expos I am hit by the elf at my base and at same time in my main by UD, and from there it's pure 2v1 until I leave in disgust.
That's what I recall, at least (may have been said already but this is from a player's perspective).
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you did charm me and you, quote, said "dont hit me im charming both of you" when i hit your dead middle expo. I replied, yes but im still losing units
and yeah you did crawl back, which is why i was afraid. you had triple race, towers, best micro. kind of reminds me of why yane used to get teamed with his dual race, insane micro. walking PM me that u kill his expo, i say hes charming me lets team. we both pump 100 and hit. Simple normal teaming.
also, the save point was ~25 minutes, not 40. im sorry for the ugly teaming i was just doing what was in best interest to win
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din't that happened after the save point?
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I haven't read the hole thread, neither watched the replay yet, but it seems like a sad development i didnt expect :icon_confused:. Well, that walking is convincable for preteaming i knew after my goldrush game with rabbit. But i didnt expect eshan to do sth like that. If it happened like i read in the text of them there is no doubt to ban them to make future games save from stuff like that. Good assertiveness admins!
"Apparently I've been banned from FML for preteaming, after trying to help test if people were really willing to preteam"
How stupid can you be eshan? :icon_biggrin:
It's like you would steal something and afterwards say that you wanted to bring it back.
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Read the thread LW, before you insult. I told the admins BEFORE the game what i was doing, not after.
And watch the replay and read the description. teaming was in-game circumstance, not preteam. I hate cheaters which is why i tried to help. now im being accused of cheating.
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So I just got back from a family dinner... (its relevant).
First, Eshan's private messages on this website.
Walking: Hah. This PM + Your posts on Q/rain game = instant win.
My first response. Let this be the precedent for the other responses. Because on FFAReplays he was bitching about Pre-team and then he tells everyone "I'm going to preteam in all my games".
I had a suspicion that he was doing this for all of the other players (turns out he was) but I went along with it as a joke. Let me repeat that. As a joke. I was always waiting for Eshan to say something contrary (saying hes joking) but he never did it directly to me, he did it to Darkness/Ebo.
So two days ago (I'm down for Xmas) my family tells me were having a dinner Wednesday night, 6PM (game started 3PM my time). I have to go and I didn't want to try to reschedule my FML match, and I had 3 hours.
So in the 80 minutes, I get rushed by Star and then later hit again by star, truely bothering me. Then Star finally clues in and hes like, "Hey eshan is fucking strong, lets team him". I'm like OK. We both hit Eshan, but then Star stops responding to me. So then hes like "I can't win, so you guys have to tell me who deserves it because I'm going to kill the other". After that bullshit, me and Eshan go to Star's base and are hitting him from both sides. THIS IS WHERE WE DISC.
I want to point out that up to this point there was nothing "pre-teaming" like. I may not be recalling correctly, but I believe the first "big" moment once it was a 3 way was me and Star talking about teaming out Eshan and then both hitting him.
NOW WERE IN GGC.
2 hours have gone by since we started, I did not really want to rehost. If you can recall, I was asking for a 15/15/15 split between the 3 of us. Worpex came on and said you either go by points or rehost, so I rehosted. But I wanted to reschedule a rehost, but Eshan was bitching about the fact that he wanted to play now. In this time, I have not talked to EITHER player about the game.
So we rehost.
At this point, I have 40 minutes to do shit in this game. I needed to quickly kill both of them or die trying.
The save point starts with me at 50 hoarding 2 mines. Star decides to be cool and harass my expos and charm harass Eshan (and I know he charm harassed him because when I went into Star's base for the first time there was 2-3 chims that I had to kill). Eshan and I private chat'ed and we agreed to kill Star out and then 1v1. If Eshan agreed, it would greatly benefit me as I had a time restraint and could not be involved in a long, drawn out 3way.
So we coordinated an attack and killed Star and then fought twice and I left. End of story.
THERE ARE THINGS THAT BOTHER ME ABOUT UGRI'S SIDE OF THE STORY.
Having a rehost with no saved game, in no way shape or form, means that we finally decided to "enforced the preteam you agreed on". IF IT WAS A PRETEAM, IT WOULD MEAN WE WERE GOING TO DO IT ALL ALONG AND NOT JUST WITH THE NEW CIRCUMSTANCES
"Pre-determined Teaming" is negated completely because, as the 80 minute replay shows, there was no evidence of "Pre-detetemined Teaming" WHATSOEVER. And it doesn't make any sense to all of the sudden, because of a rehost, decide to start "preteaming".
Another thing that bothers me is Ugri is putting a lot of important on "I was supposed to be afk but hanged around to see if SS was lagging. Then I saw what you guys were doing and stayed.". You said you had to go fill a bottle or something. Me and Eshan didn't even do anything (besides getting harassed by Star) for the first 5 minutes of the rehost. I'm sure you could've filled the bottle and came back in that time. So I don't understand the importance of that comment at all.
So, from my view, I poked fun at Eshan's preteam request, ending up teaming with him AFTER 85 minutes of play, and am being blamed for preteaming. I had a time restraint and I needed to end the game quickly. So I was either going to get Star to COMPLETELY KILL eshan with me, or team with Eshan to completely kill out Star. Why? Because I could not have a long drawn out 3 way and 1v1's are much quicker. So I did that.
I am so lost that the whole preteaming evidence is being said as, "its in the rehost". If it was a preteam then we would've been acting on it in the 80 minute replay. WE DID NOT KNOW THE GAME WAS GOING TO CRASH, so if we weren't playing like we were preteaming, its probably because we weren't preteaming.
If you have specific questions, I'll respond to any of them.
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No, I didn't touch the elf at all during rehost. He hit me after I started harassing your expos and that's when I charmed his units, not before. I'm not gonna say anything about the ban or whatever, but I will make sure that the truth is told regarding the game. The rehost was nothing but pure 2v1 teaming from the very first second and I think that's pretty fucked up.
Edit: Besides, if you had such time constraints, why didn't you agree to my proposal to end the game quickly and fairly? Why were you both so silent? Almost as if you had already decided what you wanted to do...
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No, I didn't touch the elf at all during rehost. He hit me after I started harassing your expos and that's when I charmed his units, not before. I'm not gonna say anything about the ban or whatever, but I will make sure that the truth is told regarding the game. The rehost was nothing but pure 2v1 teaming from the very first second and I think that's pretty fucked up.
Don't say "very second". Because the game fucking started 80 minutes before that. Before we disconnected we were trying to team you. So the game disconnected and we rehosted way before, but we were still in a 3 way, I had to leave soon, so we teamed you anyway. Remember, the game started 80 minutes before that.
Now, when you say "thats pretty fucked up". Of course. But please don't feel "picked on". I have had two humans tank me at the same time, Duck has had it. Eshan has had the game where he felt "picked on". Lots of times in FFA things happen outside of your control and are unfair. I did it because I had to leave and I had like a 30% chance of winning after and, given my time restraints, I thought that was good enough. I have fought Eshan UD vs NE before and he kicked my ass with those heroes. Turns out he kicked my ass this time too. But like I said, I had a time restraint. If I didn't have to leave in a given time then it would've just been a long drawn out three way.
Repeat, I did it because I had a time restraint. Why did Eshan do it? Probably because he knew he could beat me 1v1.
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Well thank you Ugri and admins for reconsidering, I really appreciate it. I dont think you're evil, I just dont like being accused of cheating when i tried to help.
As for rematch - I am willing to rematch. I want to clear my name as being a cheater. All i did was play for win.
The other players didnt win so I guess they might want rematch as well. Kind of sad that after winning I will likely lose this time, but its worth it to clean this mess.
I just hope ebo doesnt suicide me for taking him out. He seemed pretty mad. But I will play a clean, noncheating game as always.
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To ease the drama, banishment has been cancelled but now most admins are sleeping.
The solutions mostly agreed is a point penalty.
I don't understand a point penalty. I could've took Ebo's path, said no, and ousted Eshan. But instead I jokingly played long with him.
If you watch the 80 minute replay, you can very clearly see that there was no preteam and I tried very hard to get Eshan teamed out of the game. After the 15 minute downtime to find a rehost and me being scared for time, I took the quick path. Was the quick path unfair in game terms? No. People get teamed all the time and this was no different. Its a 3 way, we all try to manip each other to teaming with each other, in the end two people decide on one and they do it.
Is the difference between teaming him out completely and just hurting him actually what you guys are accusing us of "preteam" on? You had to take into consideration that the game was already played for 80 minutes. There was no preteam. There was IN GAME TEAMING, like every other game.
As evil as I always am, I proposed a rematch which wasnt agreed mostly because of the fear that you guys would throw another even more fucked up game.
So let's see if you 4 could agree on playing a normal game, maybe for this one we wouldnt allow pm and check the replays after. This would have to be played quick and i know christmas time isnt the best time.
I dont know if starshaped would like to at all. discuss
We can replay it. However I don't know why "no pm chat" would be involved. Because there was no preteaming/issue with this game, so it seems weird to try to put that into the mix.
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Well I suggested I would play with no PM I didnt mean everyone. I suggested it because you said admins were worried ...that we would preteam "again".
Im just down to play a normal game rematch. Im already getting screwed since I won this game and am losing my 25 points in a rematch, but thats fine lets do it
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also in response to ugris locked thread - whats new this season from last season?
Q veta
which player has done this consistently, eveen in the S4 game u mention? Q veta
so thats whats different. looks like he 'revolutionized' ffa
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I'm not the one who got kicked out for preteaming, son.
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If you didn't have time to play the saved game out, why even bother? I think deciding before the game restarts that you're gonna 2v1 me is pretty much pre-teaming and despicable. It also makes zero sense, since I was the weakest player in EVERY SINGLE WAY (gold/heroes/income), so if you truly played for the win you'd try to get me in the 1v1 situation. And, like I said, I tried to get you to end it as fast as possible but you both just ignored me (and remember, I suggested this at the very start of the saved game). That's what I call teaming from the start and your reasons for doing it don't hold up to scrutiny.
Anyway, I don't exactly feel like another game with you guys, and this entire ordeal has made me question just how fun this league actually is...
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Oh, so I get it, it wasn't preteaming! You guys just sent each others message joking about it! Hahaha! If we compare it to a rl situation, it's like having two idiot joke about about bringing a bomb in a plane, of course they don't have one, it's just a funny joke. Now to make it even funnier, one of the said idiots calls the cop and say "THERE IS A BOMB ON THE PLANE" (notice how eshan said he would probably be preteamed but never felt the need to mention he had an alliance?). Now, what the fuck do you think happends to the two idiots once the security realizes it was a joke? They say "Don't do it again! And have a safe trip"? If google servers me right, its a 2nd degree felony
And tbh, I din't mind much for Ugri wanting to see the game before taking any action, banning you guys the second we got a hold on the pm would have been fine with me.
If you really wanted to help the league by stopping preteaming, you would have reported walking once he agreed, not decided to wait an see if he actually teamed with you, and after you profited THEN report him (not saying you profited, but you still waited)
On the bright side (for you) we are talking about a lighter sentence (mostly ugri actually, I would keep the ban solely for the "we don't negotiate with (fake)terrorists")
On that, have a good day esad
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You read Walking's message like he accepted? The first thing he does is say "hah" and link to where Eshan said he would PM all 3 players. And of course, "yeah let's do it but no PMing!!" (yeah let's do it but no actual cooperation?)
I discussed the PMs with Worpex before they rehosted and I told him you admins were lacking common sense if you thought they were serious. All your actions post-game just reinforce you guys are.
If you want to punish Eshan for creating this drama for no reason, be my guest. But no intelligent person could read those PMs like Walking was serious. Unless ofc you think he is a 16 year chick from Cali.
And for SS -- if the goal is to finish a game quickly, teaming out the weakest (and I have a hard time saying you were weakest) is the logical option as it is quickest. If you do your stupid balance the game strategy (team the strongest), you would backstab Walking when he was strongest resulting in him teamed. And then when you were strongest, they would team you. And it'd rotate for another 2 hours. It would be least logical thing to do. Plus in the 1v1, Walking could have won; they fought twice and both times whoever got silence first won. It is not like Eshan stomped him.
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Oh darn, I really fail at understanding these rules!
I forgot the "everything something is a joke says as long as you can detect at least one! my bad my bad!"
so lets start!
12/f/ny
lolololol your Banned lololol
of course you can't seriously be banned, after all there is no way i'm from ny right?
Now, let's just hope this is actually your pc and not walking's. Would be a shame right?
...
Funny thing, Ugri (the one guy who always protected you for some reason) is gone, so.. who will take care of your ass now?
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Even if it was a joke the admins specifically asked that people shouldn't joke about preteaming after Rain told duck we had a pregame agreement even though we didn't.
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Honestly, I think your game, Renaud, with Q was much more "preteamy" than this one, based on the game situation itself. I know that "it was in your own interests" (very stupid explanation) but isnt this the same as "lets make sure that the other two players die first and then have a fun solo" which is basically preteam. Next on that list is the Walking and killyouself game which is pretty much the same situation but executed poorly. This one also seems very suspicious but not as the two examples above.
Also, the league now has turned into a shitfest with all these cheese, preteam, drama and so on, and it mostly comes from the same players: Q, Ebo, Walking, killyouself etc. And I am sure there was a pregame plan prepared for a few games in this season so far (lets team this player if he tomes someone, no matter what)... You can easily guess what I am implying and it again comes from the same guys.
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Yes it is funny that I was actually the one protecting most of these suckers, and I was always the one to be blamed and insulted by them.
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I think at best, eshan was being a moronic fucking idiot
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I start to believe that this can be stopped only by banning PM although I am not against it and I use pm occasionally. The shit with the teaming went too far.
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"I did the PM thing to try to see if people would preteam - only walking agreed, but i didnt trust him anyway because he admitted to messaging with ebo also"
- its so fucking looooooooooooooooooooooooooool =))))))
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Yes, I agree, my game with Q was horrible, and I regret it.
The only slight diffrence, is that we din't message each others days before game.
And I think you might be right, we should probably ban pm...
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Honestly - Kruppe does not understand that at all.
But there is a solution to this:
Ban PM from the league.
This way you can easily see who is preteaming and who is not.
If only open chat is allowed, teaming must be discussed there - else there must have been other talking which is clearly PRETEAMING.
Kruppe very much enjoyed playing FFA in this league but some of these things can't go on.
Kruppe feels disgusted and angry about it. Kruppe doesn't know if Eshan's move was clever at all but as it seems he clearly made admins aware of his plan.
All in all we have other issues to solve also.
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Yes, I agree, my game with Q was horrible, and I regret it.
The only slight diffrence, is that we din't message each others days before game.
And I think you might be right, we should probably ban pm...
Agreed. Worp was wrong in saying it would be too difficult to enforce -- having everyone submit their replays post game at risk of forfeiture is easy enough.
Manip makes FFA interesting and differentiates it from all other playstyles. PM does not. PM has turned half of the games this season into 4 hour matches where its just a rotating team fest of crap.
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actually we just need 3 players to send their replay to see all pm ;)
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actually we just need 3 players to send their replay to see all pm ;)
If you need help with anything, Kruppe can assist you in the next weeks. Just give him a PM (funny, eh?).
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actually we just need 3 players to send their replay to see all pm ;)
If you need help with anything, Kruppe can assist you in the next weeks. Just give him a PM (funny, eh?).
Thks Kruppe but i dont need anything, I dismissed from any admin position in this league.
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I would like to point out that I suggested banning PM a bit ago, these 3rd world countries like Romania man, leaguing for a few years vs Russians teaches you about different cultures...
IF YOU ARE READING THIS SOMETIME WITHIN ME POSTING SEARCH FFA ON AZEROTH, THANKS. (I think I am matching players in the 40 ell range atm?)
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I'd like to point out that this has been my best FML season so far. Now I stopped playing in 2008 and when I came back a few months ago I just did what worked in 2006-2008 and applied it to today's highly skilled at scouting and decision making group. It turns out it's working better than ever so either I have gotten a lot smarter or the two predominant styles of play (letting one player steamroll the others or a 3-way carousel of teaming) aren't very smart things if what I'm doing is working so well.
Now as for the preteaming part this has always happened. The Bobas/Lost game where they took me out, the S5 FML final, the game where Audigy suicided me giving another Lone player the win, that game with LeL (I don't remember what happened) and a bunch of others. It's just that you guys turned a blind eye to it. I complained a little but hey this stuff happens sometimes so I let it go (mostly). This season however two people who have not mastered the very advanced ability called "scouting" decided to be louder than I ever was and call preteaming in two of my games (but not the other two which also had lots of teaming and private chatting). Is it my fault that Eshan didn't scout? Why didn't Humans7ar complain? Why didn't duck do anything about Rain's hoarding or scout before hitting me? But of course these things are all my fault, just like Eshan trying to preteam is my fault (even if it was a joke the admins specifically requested that you don't make such jokes). So you can crucify me for the sins of my fellow FFA players because what I'm doing is obviously so evil and obviously can't be stopped.
As for banning PM I don't like it but it's Worpex's league he can do whatever he wants.
About ugri's "let's go back to the basics" post in the other thread: these are the basics. Check who won Season 1 and what kind of tactics he used.
My biggest question is why am I, a guy who hasn't played in 3 years doing so well? Sure I'm 2-2 but those two losses were pretty close and I never had such a good season. Maybe you should reevaluate the way you're playing (except duck of course because he's too stupid to do anything properly).
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Just to update - admins are still in discussion regarding this situation and whether an unban will occur, along with what penalities will happen due to the forum PMs sent by Eshan (and subsequently Walking accepting it), even though it may look like that preteam did not actually occur in the game. So when I come home tonight from a long, fun day of work, hopefully we can fully update you guys on what we decide.
As far as no PM goes, it would solve lots of problems, but I suspect that many people won't like it.
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If the decision is to ban/penalize me for the earlier PM's alone (me joking an agreeing to preteam), so be it.
But I havn't heard anyone point out anywhere in the game that we showed where we had a predetermined alliance and was out to kill everyone until it was just us 2.
Once against I will repeat: I tried to kill and team eshan out of the game. This differs from my game with my brother, differes from Q/renaud game, from Rain/q game. I fought him in a 100 food battle and was trying to get him teamed out of the game.
This fact alone is why I am completely lost why I would be banned/penalized. And if you look, the only reason I ever started to team with Eshan (and go for Star) is because Star no longer wanted to team with me.
And, like I said, I tried to get you to end it as fast as possible but you both just ignored me (and remember, I suggested this at the very start of the saved game). That's what I call teaming from the start and your reasons for doing it don't hold up to scrutiny.
You did not try to get it to end as fast as possible. You suggest we all get 100 food armies and fight in the middle and whoever wins that, wins and the other two leave. Are the other two actually going to leave? Were you going to leave? What if I was only one who left and got "screwed" out of the deal?
Now why were you the one who got teamed to death and not me or Eshan? Well very simply, he asked first. I was trying to get you to team with me and kill Eshan in the other game but you stopped talking to me, and thats why in the first game we were teaming you because you stopped talking to me. Not because eshan started, because you stopped. Now I didn't want to have to replay 40 minutes of gametime, so once the rehost started I had two things happen. You harassed me and Eshan asked to team you. So thats what happened. If you started the rehost asking em to team Eshan, I would've said yes. Even if you take out the fact that I had to leave in a certain amount of time, I did not want to sit around and do nothing for another 2 hours in a 3way. Whoever asked first was going to be the one who teamed with me, but instead you harassed me. Not my fault.
And I didn't want to replay it right there. I said I wanted to reschedule the rehost. But Eshan complained so I decided we will rehost and I will quickly try to kill the other two, and thats what I tried to do. In a three way the quickest way to kill someone out of the game is that.
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As far as no PM goes, it would solve lots of problems, but I suspect that many people won't like it.
I am sure a lot of people will like it, especially after so much shit in the recent games.
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What shit? There's been 3 games, the one on Gold Rush with me and Renaud (where we both did what was in our best interest, not our fault the other 2 didn't scout), the one with the brothers and this one where Eshan asked for preteaming as a "joke".
The other games have been fine.
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well 3 is already too much imo
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As far as no PM goes, it would solve lots of problems, but I suspect that many people won't like it.
I am sure a lot of people will like it, especially after so much shit in the recent games.
Fully agreed.
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well 3 is already too much imo
I think those are the ones people (all 2-3 of them) complain about. Personally the only thing I found wrong was Eshan's preteaming "joke".
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Ban will be lifted due to mass drama surrounding this game. Both Eshan and TrL will simply receive no points for the match.
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Ban will be lifted due to mass drama surrounding this game. Both Eshan and TrL will simply receive no points for the match.
Ok, I'm in this one now. I still need explaining to me where it is clearly shown in the game that we preteamed. If we preteamed, it would be evident that we are looking out for each others interests until it is a 1v1. However, in the game, I tried to kill and take out Eshan...?
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That seems tricky.
First.
pls don´t consider the option of cancelling the overall fun thing fml because of a few causing overhyped drama.
i don´t remember the exact time but maybe between r1 and r2 i realized fml could become some troubles because of ongoing troubles which drain a lot of resources ( admins time for solving problems, guys answering to to things happened in games, not stopping, delayed games ). still with the great work of admins and the biggest part of the players who at first want a funny, good game trying to win in a more competetive ffa-envirement.
in s10 we had elessar, who is a competent ffaer, but just very diffucult to deal with not only because of his huge time-difference or mightymurrock who also wanted more to live his egocentric nature than actually having games which CAN be fun for everyone ( i don´t like both much as far as i know them via internet; [had a good talk with mightymurrock while obsing aswell so] but that is no reason for me not to play a game with them. but it was defeniteley better for the whole league not to have them in it for a smoother running, i am quite sure.
There were several drama-games or acting by players outside of games which can be considered of questionable, but that was all quite acceptable. we just cannot accept that a few trying to corrupt the system ( that sounds dramatic or philosophical or w/e, hope u understand what i try to say ), making everyone going crazy or paranoid while forgetting about the actual thing:
playing a game with the intention of having fun and winning ( whichever order u want ) without trying to prove ' bigger than life- things' , using the platform of ffa/fml to make super-intellectual statements or forms of succeding- simply taking it too serious with their actions spoiling the fun for everyone else beside themselves. i like the variety of 'virtual-personas' that ffa/fml possess, but it would be nice if they also try to adapt a little bit to the bulk of guys.
So, even when there are not so many ffa-players out there (anymore) i am sure we will get a anjoyable lineup with 32, but maybe 16 is another option which could be a good alternative. ( ofc, when 1 player lacks motivation or leaves the leauge can have more impact than in a 32 ). So i have no problem with some guys leaving the league ( i mean when i care so much about fml and winning, if i try everything to succeed i must be for banning to players who might be able to take my spot for the playoffs.) This is irony ! i don´t think like that, just wanted to add a little funny part to my more serious post.
about eshan: i always experienced him as a player who plays always for the win. i had some enjoyable, good games with him during ladder season 1/2 where he did not abuse manipping ( he has a tough standing cuz of his relentless heavy-manip style of play, i mean i don´t like that style, but i still have no problem playing him or wanting to suicide him in every game, but ofc i still can get angry or upset about his style sometimes).
about walking: i probably saw his name in some older replay, but just saw his quali-game , r1 game and had my r2 game with him. i probably overreacted about his chatting and acting, but sometimes i am really sensitive about the way of chatting he used, but also other guys are using ( from time to time), still i did not like what i saw and read, but that is not enough for wanting him out of the league or going crazy towards him in future games.
things backfired at them, i am a bit surprised that they are so surprised about the consequences of their actions.
hope i wrote understandable and mb more to come, but i have enough for now.
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Ban will be lifted due to mass drama surrounding this game. Both Eshan and TrL will simply receive no points for the match.
Ok, I'm in this one now. I still need explaining to me where it is clearly shown in the game that we preteamed. If we preteamed, it would be evident that we are looking out for each others interests until it is a 1v1. However, in the game, I tried to kill and take out Eshan...?
After the save game. I was not in the game, so I can't say for sure, but I trust the view of the other admins.
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Ban will be lifted due to mass drama surrounding this game. Both Eshan and TrL will simply receive no points for the match.
Ok, I'm in this one now. I still need explaining to me where it is clearly shown in the game that we preteamed. If we preteamed, it would be evident that we are looking out for each others interests until it is a 1v1. However, in the game, I tried to kill and take out Eshan...?
After the save game. I was not in the game, so I can't say for sure, but I trust the view of the other admins.
Hmm... but that doesn't make sense? It wouldn't be a "pre-team" if, after 80 minutes, we started teaming star out. If you watch the 80 minute first half, you can see that I first try to kill out Eshan but Star stops wanting to do that. However, I still want to make it a 1v1 and Eshan is okay with teaming out Star. So we start hitting Star from both sides of his base. Then we disconnect and I'm frusterated with the time delay yada yada yada... and Eshan asks me if we want to continue to team out Star. I say sure just so I know he doesn't hit me, but not because I was going to directly just start teaming out Star. Then Star walks over and kills both of my expansions so I tell Eshan, okay lets build 100 food armies and hit this guy. So we did.
So, I will need further explanation of how this is "preteaming"
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Well I din't see the game, so I can't comment, BUT
Walking: Hah. Yes we are going to peace from the start and hoard and get 1 or 2 and team out the moron ebo and the soloist star. I like you Eshan.
and it's exactly what happened
However, it's quite possible there was no preteaming, and it was just a coincidence based on the positions (thus no ban) but simply agreeing to preteam in secret is probably enough to be sanctionned
(i added in private, because many player do joke about it... but when its done in all chat before game, it isn't half as suspicious)
You are probably more of a victim in this (compared to eshan) so its a good thing eshan won, since I would have felt worst if you where the one to get 25 pts removed
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I think either way Walking, regardless of your actions in game or your intentions before the game, you accepting the peace offer from Eshan from the forum PMs is more than enough for punishment. Same goes for Eshan. 0 points for the game is a fair assessment.
P.S. Slythe holy shit, Capital letters, paragraphs, and punctuation please! I can't read that wall of text.
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lol it was a pain to read that yeah
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I'm not apart of this league at all, and i don't know much about FFA in general but i do follow this league because im Ducks #1 fan and Rebukes #1 fan.
I recently started to play FFA on bnet and what IVE come to the conclusion that FFA is all about manipulation and con-spiriting in-game. and what i mean by that, when i win its because i use other players to win and dont base the game off my own micro.. i mean i remember when Fury used to play and Yane these players that were in WC3L but wouldnt win so you have to remember that. I jsut think Unless it is CLEAR PRE-GAME pre-teaming that it really shouldnt be bad, whats wrong with a little alliance IN-GAME to help yourself? after all it is a strategy game no?
I mean i watch FFA games for strategy and creativeness whether it is teaming or not. I dont watch FFA for fancy micro or robot strategies.
I could be and probably am completely wrong, just 2 cents from a viewer perspective.
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no you are right, we (at least i) are mostly mad about private messaged they exchanged about teaming days before the actual game
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Yeah which i understand 100% and agree with.
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Well I din't see the game, so I can't comment, BUT
Walking: Hah. Yes we are going to peace from the start and hoard and get 1 or 2 and team out the moron ebo and the soloist star. I like you Eshan.
and it's exactly what happened
But its not, because I hit Eshan and tried to get him teamed out of the game.
I just want you guys to know what you are penalizing for, because it has nothing to do with in game actions.
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We aren't replaying this game? What the fuck?
As all admins admitted, the only case of REAL preteaming that was acknowledged, in season 4, you replayed the game.
Here we did NOT preteam. 80 minutes of normal gameplay happened before we decided to team up BECAUSE HE HIT WALKING AND HE HAD TRIRACE, TOWERS, BEST MICRO.
So we teamed him out.
We did not "peace from start" despite the quote renaud just posted.
So now you are removing our points? Is it because you dont want it to seem like you didnt take any action, that you just let us go free EVEN THOUGH WE DIDNT PRETEAM?
I understand not getting my 25 points. I dont like it but okay. But now we cant rematch?
First of all that ruins chances for the playoffs for me and for walking. Second of all - THE REASON I DIDNT REPORT WALKING AS A PRETEAMER IS BECAUSE it was OBVIOUS he was joking. And I wanted to catch them actually doing it before punishing them.
Because thats how punishment works. You guys seem content with punishing us even though there was no preteaming.
The whole problem with preteaming is that it gives two players an unfair advantage. Which game did that happen in?
Q/Renaud game - TEAM ALL GAME DESPITE SPAWNS but no proof of 'pre-game messaging. No penalty even though two players had unfair advantage from start throughout the WHOLE game.
This game - yes pregame messaging (that I told you guys about and why I was doing it), but no, we did NOT TEAM AT ALL until the very end for real in game reasons. No unfair advantage, but yes penalty?
That defies logic and fairness.
so why is there no rematch? I should get my points but if you still think the game is in question, rematch it. Dont just remove our points like some dictators
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So now you are removing our points
Some kind of punishment was needed for the forum PMs from you (and walking agreeing to it) and this seemed like the most fair way to go. Yes yes yes, you claim it was to help the league, Walking claimed he was joking when he accepted it. Whether that is true or not, it still happened, it's against the rules, and we have actioned both of you accordingly.
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Rematching the game IS a punishment since I won...
and it clears the game from all this preteaming nonsense
and it happens to be the RIGHT thing to do, based on fairness AND based on FML precedent.
Removing our points (LOL and spotting starshaped an extra point hahaha) just means you are avoiding the proper punishment and settling on one that makes you look better as admins.
But the best admins are the ones who act fairly, not quickly without fairness/logic.
Explain why rematching is a worse option, and less fair option, than abritrarily removing our points?
If you say we need 'some punishment for those PMs (which were not real preteaming messages as you knew)', why not choose the fair punishment (rematch) over the unfair one (point removal)?
Also the goal is a fair league, right? So removing our points gives us an unfair position vs the other players in this league. Rematch puts everyone exactly where they should be. Removing points alters the league standings. Obviously as a playre you and renaud want us to have less points, but as admins you should choose the fair choice
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Removing our points (LOL and spotting starshaped an extra point hahaha) just means you are avoiding the proper punishment and settling on one that makes you look better as admins.
The original punishment was you two being banned, so I'm not sure how you can say that this one we did is not proper. You sent forum PMs asking for preteam. Walking agreed to it. That's preteam, it's against our rules.
But the best admins are the ones who act fairly, not quickly without fairness/logic.
I agree that the original punishment we acted too hastily and I mostly stood out of the way during the decision process that went on, but as far as this one goes, it's the best choice (given the circumstances).
Explain why rematching is a worse option, and less fair option, than abritrarily removing our points?
It's not fair. But neither was the action that you took, nor the action that Walking took (on our forums). It's called punishment, AKA deterring others from doing similar actions in the future, there's no "fairness" about it. You're right that it's about sending a message, that's part of what a punishment is.
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Wrong punishment is not about sending a message. Thats what unfair leaders do with exaggerated punishments
If you think the game was unfairly played by the player who won, the punishment should be a rematch. Fixes the game, and removes his victory.
The message you want to send has clearly been sent. Punishments are reprisal for crimes. Whereas a change in rules or in social norms are what prevent future crimes. The no-PM rule being discussed, which normally I would oppose (I joined Fury because Lone said no-PM), I would be down for. And that would eliminate these problems.
So using us to 'set an example' is indeed unfair. The punishment should fit the crime, and you know that 'you sent PM. walking agreed. you teamed' is the most inaccurate, oversimplified, version of what happened that you could possibly take.
The truth, which you know, is much different. I tried to help the league, failed, played a normal game, teamed with a player verse a threat after 80 minutes, and won.
Punish me fairly for causing all this drama or putting the game in question, but dont punish me unfairly in a way that ruins my chances to win (because thats what you are really doing with this punishment, i cannot make playoffs). Points in a swiss system should reflect skill and success, once you alter that it is unfair.
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Definition of punishment, WiKi: "an authorized imposition of deprivations—of freedom or privacy or other goods to which the person otherwise has a right, or the imposition of special burdens—because the person has been found guilty of some criminal violation, typically (though not invariably) involving harm to the innocent."
Have we been found guilty of a crime (preteaming)? By admin posts themselves, no. Admins admit we did not preteam. Have we hurt the innocent (the league)? uhhh no. in fact this whole drama has only helped ensure people will likely not preteam. Or even PM, if the new rule is put in place.
So we are being punished for those messages that we sent. By your own quote, thats what you are punishing us for.
However never was the SENDING of messages a crime in our league. It was the PRETEAMING ITSELF in a game that was considered cheating.
on top of this, the intentions of my messages, which I revealed to you before the game, should make it 100% obvious that the messages themselves were not preteaming plans.
So no crime was committed, and the messages you are punishing me were not criminally intended.
Not to make a ridiculous comparison, but honestly this is like in The Dark Knight when they are trying to punish Batman for helping the damn city
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we decided to team up BECAUSE HE HIT WALKING AND HE HAD TRIRACE, TOWERS, BEST MICRO.
We did not "peace from start" despite the quote renaud just posted.
You both need to stop bending the truth so damn much. Pre-teaming from the start of a saved game is just as bad as pre-teaming from the start of a game imo. I don't agree with how the results turned out, but I don't think there should be a re-game either. Just be glad you aren't banned imo.
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Definition of punishment, WiKi: "an authorized imposition of deprivations—of freedom or privacy or other goods to which the person otherwise has a right, or the imposition of special burdens—because the person has been found guilty of some criminal violation, typically (though not invariably) involving harm to the innocent."
Have we been found guilty of a crime (preteaming)? By admin posts themselves, no. Admins admit we did not preteam. Have we hurt the innocent (the league)? uhhh no. in fact this whole drama has only helped ensure people will likely not preteam. Or even PM, if the new rule is put in place.
So we are being punished for those messages that we sent. By your own quote, thats what you are punishing us for.
However never was the SENDING of messages a crime in our league. It was the PRETEAMING ITSELF in a game that was considered cheating.
on top of this, the intentions of my messages, which I revealed to you before the game, should make it 100% obvious that the messages themselves were not preteaming plans.
So no crime was committed, and the messages you are punishing me were not criminally intended.
Not to make a ridiculous comparison, but honestly this is like in The Dark Knight when they are trying to punish Batman for helping the damn city
You fucking faggot shut the fuck up youre lucky youre not banned for being such a goddamn idiot. I didn't see preteam but anyone as stupid as you are, both in pregame idiocy and the continued bitching post-unban is unbelievable. Youre lucky all these admins are goddamn softies cause if I was still admining this league id reban you for being such an ungrateful nigger.
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calm down wreck good thing you arent an admin anymore, lettin emotions get to you
so you didnt see preteam, but i should not bitch if im unfairly banned? good one. the whole point here is fairness/logic, not "fuck u nigger you should be banned for being a dumbass"
and SS we didnt team from start of rehost, a few minutes into it is when we decided. You said lets fight in the middle. I thought that was fucking retarded. Once you hit walking he said "ok he hit my expo, lets team him". And thus we teamed you. Maybe you should have been more patient. But hey they gave you an extra point for sucking in a 3way, lucky you.
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punishment is not about sending a message. Thats what unfair leaders do with exaggerated punishments
An exaggerated punishment is banning you from the league, and that was revoked. Sorry but I disagree about the nature of the punishment.
Fact - You sent PM to all 3 players requesting preteam
Fact - Walking agreed to it
Fact - It resulted in a shitload of drama.
It doesn't matter what your intentions were, it's what you did, and what the results were. I personally don't think you wanted to preteam, but I can't prove it 100% either way, so I can't let my feelings get in the way of this. If there is no punishment, then others may feel inclined to do something similar in the future in regards to breaking our rules, and then claim that it was for the good of the league, or whatever. You're right, there is no specific rule that says private messaging others and offering preteam is not allowed. But it's still bypassing the spirit of the rules to encourage unfair advantage pre-game. What you did was reckless and irresponsible, honestly all you had to do was consult the admins before you undertook this "project" of yours. We would've told you not to do it, more than likely, but that doesn't mean you can take things into your own hands and not accept consequences for your actions.
By the way, I don't speak for the entire admin staff, although considering that Worpex + Reno wanted to keep you + Walking banned, I think you should be happy with the result.
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P.S. please no pointless insults towards eachother, I've deleted the offending comments, let's keep this discussion civil
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Darkness all your facts are indeed facts
You just fail to mention all the important facts in between. The ones that actually show what really happened
But at this point I know, and you know, what really happened. We both know I did not preteam. There was NO crime. Nor were my private messages an intention to preteam. So there was no crime there either. In fact, if I had used any other messaging place besides this website, and still sent yuo that message telling you what I was doing and the game had gone the same way, what would you say?
The results speak for themselves -there was no preteam, I sent you the damn message.
You aren't punishing me, you are using me as a whipping boy to make sure that other people dont preteam or send messages about preteaming. But that has already been accomplished - 1. because of all this drama, and 2. because everyone knows u can read the damn messages now lol.
You keep telling me to be happy because I'm not banned. The ban was wrong, I'm happy it didn't happen, but it never should have in the first place. This punishment is wrong as well. Its almost as bad as the ban because it effectively ruins my chance at winning this league. So you're just letting me play two meaningless FML matches after this, because even if i win BOTH - I can't win.
Just let us replay the fucking match, its fair, it causes no pain to anyone else, it still removes my winning points, AND It gives ebo and SS a chance to get 25 points. Or suicide me.
Choose the fair choice. Renaud hates me so I can't count on him to be fair in this case, but you and Worpex I hope can be.
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You aren't punishing me
Yes we are, for what you did.
Nor were my private messages an intention to preteam
Again, it doesn't matter what my personal feelings are, it's what you did, the manner you went about doing it, and the results of it.
there was no preteam
I can not comment one way or the other on this, that is why I have avoided talking about it directly, since the replay was a saved game. I'm not focusing on that aspect of it at all, I'm focusing on the forum PMs you sent. My opinion means nothing, I wasn't there.
So you're just letting me play two meaningless FML matches after this, because even if i win BOTH - I can't win.
If you win both you'll be at 90 points, pretty certain that is semis
ust let us replay the fucking match, its fair
Fair to who exactly? All it does is possibly allow Ebo or Starshaped to be 1st instead, so we are rewarding them for something that you + Walking did before the game, which (as you claim) had 0 impact on the game itself? Makes no sense.
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you didnt address the key point:
I did not BREAK ANY RULES
the spirit of the rules, what? There are rules. http://ffamasters.com/league/index.php?page=1
theres the rule book. none were broken. rematching the game that I won is still a punishment, but its a much more appropriate one then just stripping two players of their points AND adding a point to another player for no reason.
Not only that, but in the one case FML has had of real preteam being caught, S4, nobody was banned or lost their points. The game was rematched.
Here we didnt even preteam and yet were banned, lost our points, no rematch.
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We're going in circles, heh
Preteaming is against the rules, you were attempting to instigate preteam, either between yourself and others, or between others besides yourself. I already mentioned that you never broke any rules specifically (or you did, but it can't be proven, so that's irrelevant), but it still caused a shitload of drama and problems as a result.
Again:
it's what you did, the manner you went about doing it, and the results of it.
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Not only that, but in the one case FML has had of real preteam being caught, S4, nobody was banned or lost their points. The game was rematched.
I wouldn't know, I wasn't around back then, there's no specific rules stating what actions we must do in the result of this or that happening, or that if we did something in the past then we must do it again, it's up to the judgement of the admins on each individual situation.
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so now the (joking) planning of a crime is a crime itself?
so jokingly messaging someone to rob a house is a crime?
you know that the messages werent serious, i fucking sent you a message about it. nor did the crime actually take place. so what youre doing is something illegal in the real world, its punishing someone for simply talking about committing a crime, when you KNOW they did not intend to. Someone with no criminal record might I add - im not a fucking cheater nor will I ever be. This is like when blizzard banned people for using that anti-maphack. Actually atleast that was against the rules. Here we didnt even BREAK THEM
Letting us replay the match doesnt hurt anyone, why wont you allow it? All players would want to do it (except maybe not SS since you spotted him a free fucking point for no reason, he didnt have top score). This league is for the players, so if the players want it, how can you disallow it
wait lemme address what you said. "its what yuo did, the manner in which you did it, and hte results"
What i did was try to help the league (okay in a stupid way) by seeing if people would preteam. The manner I did it in was OPEN since i MESSAGED U about it before the game. YOU GUYS, ADMINS, are at fault for not saying anything like dont do it.
THE RESULT? No preteam occurred, between ANY players, the league is fine.
Except we are penalized for it. Even though you could have said something - but it seems that the other admins WANTED it to happen just so they could punish me. I can see reno doing that
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removing our points (LOL and spotting starshaped an extra point hahaha) just means you are avoiding the proper punishment and settling on one that makes you look better as admins.
You are absolutely right, we shouldn't allow you back in the league out of pity; to be clear, my final vote on the situation was allowing walking back with 0 pts, and keeping you banned. (O yeah... I'm still pissed about all the "improvement" you made with this league)
In anticipation of my game I've done a little bit of 'manipping' via PMs, etc, in order to induce preteaming
Do we seriously need to any further to know that you tried to preteam?
And you wanted to "help" the league right? Nice Job Breaking It, Hero! You drove the admin you cared the most about your sorry ass away, created a massive amount of negative drama, and tried to encourage preteaming (do you seriously want to add ANOTHER fucking jurisprudence? "Yes we did message each other about teaming, but it was only and experiment/joke/to help")
Do I hate you? Of course I hate you, look at what you did in the past few days. Did I hate you before this game (errr... make that before those PM)? Nope, had already forgave all the other instance you had been a douche, was reading your comments on ffareplay, and made a topic in admin section saying you had a point and that we needed to do something... of course that lead us to check if you actually DID pm everyone like you joked about, and realized you did...
At that point we obviously stopped talking about how we could improved the league, and started focusing on your case.
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omeone with no criminal record might I add
Ummm Al.Pacino anyone?
so now the (joking) planning of a crime is a crime itself?
Again, it can't be proven either way if you were joking or not. All that can be shown for certain is that it caused a lot of unwanted issues and drama, and that it was a foolish thing to do.
We're not going to agree on much here, you've presented your point, if Worpex/Reno want to change the punishment, I will agree with what they decide, but I don't think it's happening.
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(also, since you were wondering, you broke rule 6.30a)
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6.30a - Cheating.
No i did not, as i didnt fucking cheat. Renaud you are a horrible fucking admin when it comes to deciding on fairness issues. And you just admitted you hate me, which makes you unfit to decide on something that regards me.
All im 'guilty' of is causing drama - but not really, as when the game ended I logged out of garena for a bit, thinking cool i won a game and there was no preteam. awesome.
Only when I log back on I see all the drama YOU ADMINS caused. "DROPPING THE BANHAMMER" wtf? letting me back into this league out of pity? you make a mistake and im supposed to thank you for taking it back, renaud? Actually you didnt take it back - you admitted you still think I should be banned. Ha.
YOU should be fucking banned for the same reason then - the game with you and Q, by everyones admission, is far far worse than this. And it gave you an unfair advantage which is the definition of cheating - something I did not do or have.
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You are right, my game with Q had teaming way worst than yours
But it wasn't agreed before the game, and thus it wasn't preteaming
And yeah, i "admitted" that i hated you, but i did mentionned i din't hate you before you did this bs? Or I guess i most have been maniping about that part
Btw, do you hate the current situation in America? If so, you are unfit to be part of the 99%, because you are biased, WRONG YOU ARE PART OF THESE HIPPIES BECAUSE YOU ARE ANGRY ABOUT THE CURRENT SITUATION.
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Uhh dude, just stop cause you are making no sense. After the PMs, you hated me. Hence you have no right to judge my so called 'punishment'
Yeah u guys didnt agree before the game, but u still teamed like a preteam.
whereas I agreed before the game (experiment) but I never FUCKING TEAMED LIKE A PRETEAM. So theres your difference. We cant prove your crime, but in mine: there WAS NO crime. just messages.
And i have no idea what your america comment is about. like literally none. nor does it make sense. As an admin, you are a judge. Now if a judge ruling on occupy wallstreet was shown to hate the movement, he would be unfit to judge.
Just like if a judge ruling on a discrimination issue was found to be a racist, he would be unfit to judge. You are ruling on my case, but you hate me- hence you are unfit to judge.
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See, I was going to come and rant some more... but then I saw this.
my final vote on the situation was allowing walking back with 0 pts, and keeping you banned.
I like you renaud <3
I'm sure worpex had my back. I like you too worpex ( just don't tell me otherwise so I can just believe this)
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wow wtf did i miss rofl
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Eshan this might surprise you but you can't hold me accountable for your actions. What you did was retarded, I think the punishment was too soft to be honest. About me? Well I've played the same in previous seasons and no one complained until now where you and duck (AND IT SEEMS TO BE ONLY YOU AND DUCK) complain. You are so loud and obnoxious it's unbearable. Duck has some mental deficiencies I understand, you on the other hand seemed to be fine when I left. Looks like you turned in to a complete faggot in the mean time. You know how you could have stopped the Gold Rush game? Scouting and telling humans7ar that we were both hoarding (see how Maga did it in the Deadlock game). So please this is all on you for A) not scouting and stopping something that was easily preventable and B) trying to preteam. So next time you're in a game or I'm in a game or duck's in a game, don't blame your poor play on me. It's all on you.
I'm still sad to see Walking.TrL punished.
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You are quite right I shuold have scouted better when the human was rushing me. But you are wrong that its only me and duck. Why just a few hours ago, Ugri said on ffareplays:
@ Q : you are like a poison to this league. S10 was entertaining. Now since your game on gold rush everyone is feeling free to play dirty ugly in order to get a win. Bravo.
Maybe you should go and call him mentally retarded or a 'fucking faggot' too. Add some anti-semitic, white supremacist racial slurs in there too like usual
Its funny Darkness talks about civil, but they allow a guy called JewsAreAfterMe to play, or JewishBanker lol. Or just any of your generally racist shit. And thats without talking about how you play like a scheming snake.
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I fail to see how Jewish Banker is offensive. Anyway ugri saying I was poison (or in a more cool way, venom) is because of what you did you fucking imbecile. I played my games the way I've always played them (ugri was admin in S4-S5 when I played too AFAIK). YOU caused all the drama, YOU complained about half my games it's all on you buddy. Yes if I hadn't been here you probably wouldn't have caused all this drama. So yes the difference is that I'm in this season and I wasn't in the last one. But you're still accountable for all your actions. The preteaming, the drama for no reason. Everything is your fault. I'm not guilty for something YOU did.
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Im not saying your guilty for my actions.
you are guilty of being a racist, slimy, annoying, conceited, private chatting player who most people think has brought a negative shift in the style of our games. And you didnt even have to qualify :icon_lol:
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What most people? Notice the admins are all backing in me, the only two players that complained in my games are you and duck. The others if they really do hate me are really silent about it. You mistake most people for "the loudest, most obnoxious and least white" people. And yes I'm a private chatting player but that's not against the rules unlike you preteaming.
I was selected based on the basis of past seasons when I did qualify.
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haha do you even read? idk who hates you, mr popular. I just know most would agree you brought a negative shift to the FFA style this season. And that you are a racist, conceited, pretty bad vs 17 food of UD, and you think you're funny. :icon_lol: Would it ruin your perception of my fat nerdiness if I told you I'm a hot male model?
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Well I see you're just going to deny everything like duck so there's no reason talking to you further.
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aw it did ruin your day. its okay, i wont make fun of YOU just cause youre a fat nerd
and one of the admins is ur preteam buddy, the other could care less and can rape any of us in a game, and the one who stepped down said he thinks you are a poison. so...lol. idk about worpex, but i doubt he even gives a shit. he just likes smacking down the "banhammer"
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I was hoping you'd do better than "no u". So how many points did you get in your last game?
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Well, you see, I got 25, until the admins removed them unfairly. I think thats been quite well established. Im sure you are happy though, because otherwise we would have matched, and then you would have lost :icon_frown:
male model > fat romanian racist nerd o.O
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Yes I would have lost just like in our last game. Only you established that they were unfairly removed. Just like you established a lot of people hate me when at best there's 3 (you, duck and ugri which seems very doubtful).
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This might surprise you but this is Worpex's league. He already decided on a punishment and already said you broke the rules. The fact that you still think you did nothing wrong is depressing.
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oh yes its worpex's league hes made that very clear. i didnt preteam, or do anything wrong. im being punished in spite of that, via worpex's own interpretation. but anyway the poll is for opinions. I for one would like to know if people really think im a cheater.
whats depressing is that you think its funny to be a racist asshole, and you think its cool to win via full-game teaming. that is truly sad.
anyway im off now, and its probably best to not comment on this retarded shit further. i learned a lot about how much of an asshole people can be.
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I did the PM thing to try to see if people would preteam - only walking agreed, but i didnt trust him anyway because he admitted to messaging with ebo also
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I did the PM thing to try to see if people would preteam - only walking agreed, but i didnt trust him anyway because he admitted to messaging with ebo also
You know, come to think of it, this is some awfully damning evidence. It has intent to preteam all over it.
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Im stupid enough to deny beeing in a ladder game with rabbit, but your excuses eshan just show that your stupidity is boundless, really :icon_neutral:
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I regret not posting Eshan's PMs right after I got them. But like I said, I actually wanted to play vs him, and not create any drama like Ugri asked awhile ago. I did PM walking warning that Eshan might try to preteam, and asked if Eshan asked Walking to preteam with him, and got no reply back.
Can we please ban priv chat now? You know if #1 abuser of priv chat is asking for it to be banned, there is something wrong...
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Dear Rygorych,
too many fishwives around here.
I understand quite clearly why a person getting involved with personal things of other players and posting some really annoying things gets banned. I did not read it, but I think the admins are right on this.
Still I want to know why racist, antisemitic and cheat boasting posts are still tolerated.
The concerned players get away with it.
THIS IS NOT FAIR.
Kruppe wants the upload of his first FML game (S10) with Worpex' and Johny's PM chat.
NOW!.
After that, follow the replay of every player without switching off fog and you will learn a lot of FML FFA.
Dear Worpex,
do not let this slip out of your hands. I appreciate your work a lot.
Please take all of this into your consideration.
Best wishes,
Kruppe
P.S.: Ceterum censeo private messaging esse delendam.
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I don't PM chat with anyone. If someone PM chats me, I respond in all chat. So I dont know what you're referring to about that game. If you're talking about the BM at the end of it from myself, I promptly apologized to Johnny at the end of the game and felt quite bad about it after I cooled down.
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Still I want to know why racist, antisemitic and cheat boasting posts are still tolerated.
I don't cheat.
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Still I want to know why racist, antisemitic and cheat boasting posts are still tolerated.
I don't cheat.
Kruppe knows.
If you would stop this fascist crap, Kruppe would offer you peace and a history lesson.
@Worpex
You got PM.
Up the irons, dear Worpex,
Kruppe