FFA Masters League

General => Strategy => Topic started by: FML|WorpeX on March 01, 2018, 12:00:05 am

Title: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: FML|WorpeX on March 01, 2018, 12:00:05 am
Dear aspirant,

The FML community welcomes anyone interested in the free-for-all gametype. FFA is probably the most difficult but most rewarding gametype in Warcraft 3. Anyone can play, but it takes skill to master. The nuances of strategy, the diversity of gameplay, the infinitely unique endings, the incredible armies and heroes, and the satisfaction of winning against multiple opponents – these factors and more create a gameplay experience that is unmatched by any other gametype. FML takes FFA seriously, and we are always looking for new talent. Come and play with us, observe some games, watch replays, perhaps read a guide if you are serious. We promise you will have fun, but we won’t promise you will win.

What is FFA Masters League (FML)?

A very active free-for-all community and league of free-for-all that was founded in 2005 by :USA: WorpeX. While FML seasons and other events are distributed over the year, inhouse FFA matches are played regularly every day. The number of players peaks usually between 5 pm and 2 am CET. Visit our Discord group to find games and chat about FFA: https://discord.gg/BtY2pVm.

What is special about FFA in this community?

You will soon learn that FFA is not about “killing whatever I see and hope I’m going to win”, at least within the FML community. It’s about playing for victory and for that, getting into the most advantageous position, where micro is not your only tool. Diplomacy, strategy, economy, subterfuge, 2v1’s, rebuilding, and much more are tactics you can use to achieve victory. Therefore, temporary peace between two players is a legit approach (not to be confused with pre-teaming, which is illegal). In a perfect world, players begin FFA matches by quickly establishing their economy, before engaging in combat with one other player. After one player is out, the three remaining players try to balance power until the winner has been decided. But in reality, FFAs tend to be more chaotic and anything can happen.

Small FFA Glossary

Peace: Temporary agreement of two players to not attack each other
Backstab Breaking peace or falling into another player’s back is called backstabbing
Manip: Players trying to manipulate each other by chat, be it by lying or psychological tricks
Suicide: If one player stops playing for victory and tunnelvisions another to death without caring for anything else, this is called suicide. It’s often announced to threat someone.
Dead: As “gg”, this is a relative term in FFA. It either means a player has nothing left and is almost defeated or he just wants to appear weak to get help and be left alone.
Hoarding: If a player stays passive to gather a lot of gold, this is called hoarding, particularly if he stays on 50 supply.
Tome: The weakest players in the game are considered "Tomes of Experience" since you'll have to feed experience off them if you want to be able to compete with the stronger player.
CW: On many maps, players agree on taking second expos in clock-wise (= cw) direction

General FFA Tips

- You will not win every FFA game. An average FFA winning percentage is 25%, while 50% is considered extremely good. Keep that in mind anytime you lose a rough game. The more mistakes you make and learn from the better player you'll be.

- Whenever you lose a game, try to figure out why you lost and think about what you could have done to prevent it, even if it seems out of your control. If you lose because two players teamed you, try to figure out why you got teamed and what you could have done to prevent it. Maybe eliminating one of them earlier would net you the win. Maybe you were too aggressive, maybe you weren't aggressive enough.

- Creeping is like Thanksgiving dinner. Take what everyone wants first and then your own stuff.

- Always fast expand. Other players, if they're playing smart, will be more concerned with expanding themselves than taking down your expo. No matter what map you're on, or what race you're using, you should have an expansion up and running within the first 10 minutes. Always try to have at least two mines running at all times.

- Never harass. Harassment works in solo because you keep your opponent's hero levels low and damage their economy. It doesn't work in FFA because there are two other players who are creeping and expanding.

- Pay close attention to your food count. You should always be at exactly 50, 80 or 100 food or trying to reach that number as quickly as possible unless it's very early in the game. If you don't have enough mines running for the food count you're at then you'll usually run out of money and lose.

- Never sit at 100 food. You lose 200 gold a minute from each mine you have if you're at 100 as opposed to 80. If you plan on being out of combat for more than a couple minutes, kill off your units and go down to 80 food.

- Don't lose your temper. Suiciding someone because they're harassing you with Bats or Chimaeras may make you feel better but you'll still lose the game. If you play smart you can win the game instead.

- When you're surrounded you have two options. The first is to play defensively, put up a few towers and try to stay at a low food count for as long as possible while trying to expand on the other side of the map. The second is to break free by taking out one of the players next to you and taking over their mines. However, if all the players are next to each other (two players are surrounded) then you should take out the person who's not surrounded instead of the other surrounded player. Otherwise, you'll still be surrounded (see figure below).

Code: [Select]
OPPONENT         OPPONENT         YOU   --->       OPPONENT
- In three way games, win fast or lie low. Unless you play very aggressively and take everyone out quickly try not to look like the dominant player. This will decrease your chances of being teamed. This can be done by staying at a lower food count for longer and therefore having more gold from fewer mines. Also, don't take a mine everyone is fighting over unless you're prepared to defend it. The same goes for expanding in the middle on maps like Bloodstone Mesa and Battleground. If someone suggests teaming you come up with reasons why another player is more eligible. The number of mines they've had and how much gold is in them, their hero levels or even their start position can convince other players that they are a bigger threat than you. This doesn't mean sit in your base and do nothing though. You'll need to fight someone to gain experience and you'll need to expand quite a bit to pull off a win.

- It's important to know how to hide buildings well if you're facing a strategy such as mass Tanks or Bats. Sometimes you'll have to lose your main base to take down theirs.

- Don't leave if someone takes you out. You can usually rebuild in a distant corner of the map and take out the dominant player when he's weak. Conversely, never leave a player for dead. It's amazing how people can come back if they're left alone for long enough.

- If someone cries for help when they're being attacked go to their base instead of the person who's attacking them. This way you can weaken the person who's attacking them and eliminate the person who's crying for help. You'll often get a significant amount of experience from doing this.

- The sooner you go above 80 food the larger advantage you'll have early game. The longer you stay under 50 food the bigger advantage you'll have late game. Staying at 50 is risky because a larger army can take you out rather easily but try not to exceed 50 food too early. You will need the resources later in the game. Good scouting can let you know what other players are doing so you know when you'll have to go up to 80 or even 100. Generally, it's good to go above 50 a little after all the creeps are gone because that's the point in the game where you'll have to attack someone if you want to keep up with your opponents in hero levels. It's also the point in the game where your opponents are most likely to attack you.

- Make sure you have enough production buildings to quickly rebuild or adjust your army. A good guideline is to have one production building for every 4 units that you'll have in your army from that building. For example, if you plan on having 12 Hippos in your general army you would want 3 Ancients of Wind. Obviously slight adjustments have to be made depending on how fast the particular unit builds.

(These Tips are an Excerpt from Nooblex's FFA Guide)

Additional FFA Guides

Comprehensive FFA Guide by Nooblex (https://www.wcreplays.com/articles.php?get=341)

Seksi's Guide to Free For All (https://www.wcreplays.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147337)

(FML intro Written by HighTac & Eshan)
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: 2008top1 on March 01, 2018, 04:59:23 am
very beautiful guide

register me for this season please
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Dovekie on March 01, 2018, 02:32:12 pm
Rules are made to be broken.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Peregrine on March 01, 2018, 03:40:01 pm
Hey i wrote that first paragraph! 😌 You can tell because its sassy
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: FML|HighTac on March 01, 2018, 05:25:02 pm
You are right, sorry for missing your name in this :)
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Dovekie on March 01, 2018, 05:48:04 pm
FFA is probably the most difficult but most rewarding gametype in Warcraft 3.

FALSO
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: FML|HighTac on March 01, 2018, 06:07:17 pm
On paper, I would say it's most difficult to win in FFA, simply because win rates are lower

Obviously, it's more difficult for a decent FFA player to become a good solo player than vice versa
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Peregrine on March 01, 2018, 10:18:33 pm
Lol FFA is the most difficult gametype

Unless ofcourse youre dovekie and you only play noobstomps on bot ladder
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: ZsSuperCumulo on March 01, 2018, 10:41:39 pm
Solo is far more difficult than ffa, no doubt about it. If you think otherwise you are just trying to convince yourself that the game type you play deserves as much merit as the solo scene which it doesn't.
In solo you either win or lose within the first 10 to 20 mins max while in ffa you are just playing against the computer during that time (creeping). Even if you think that the game type becomes more challenging than solo after the 20 min mark, by that time you have everything in excess, that is levels, items, gold, expos, infraestructure hence making it much easier than solo where you can barely get anything you want.
The one aspect where ffa and solo overlap is in the frustation you get when losing and satisfaction of winning, but the level of difficulty to achieve victory in both game types are lightyears away apart.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Peregrine on March 01, 2018, 11:22:14 pm
everything you just said about ffa is also true for your opponents

difficulty is defined by how difficult it is to WIN

and ffa is more difficult to win than solo. in a game with evenly skilled players, your win % in ffa is 25%, solo is 50%.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Dovekie on March 01, 2018, 11:49:52 pm
(click to show/hide)

nothing against any of these players, but this is the hardest game mode? really? Your chances of winning this are 10% if you are good, +/- some percentage points based on a bunch of arbitrary variables out of your control.

Does this even remotely compare to a prestigious solo tournament, that requires years and years of practice, study, talent & skill (both of which you need in considerably lower amounts in ffa)? No, it doesn't even compare. It is magnitudes easier in FFA. Even a bad player can have a great shot at winning an FFA game.

It's still impressive and they should feel awesome for accomplishing league victories, and while it may not always have taken an incredible amount of mechanical skill, it took a large amount of different types of skills nonetheless, and it is impressive—but it isn't anywhere near solo level.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: FML|HighTac on March 02, 2018, 03:44:47 am
not sure what we are talking about here and why you seem to feel offended by that introduction. It's all a matter of perspective. You can hardly deny that the win rate in FFA tends to be lower than in solo, no matter how skilled you are. That makes it a valid statement.

No one ever said that it's more difficult to achieve a victory in FFA than it is to become a 70% solo player. The skill ceiling in FFA is way lower than the one in solo. However, FFA offers more ways to compensate for the lack of a skill.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Peregrine on March 02, 2018, 04:44:47 am
yes this is the hardest game mode. just because its less popular and has less skilled players, doesn't change the difficulty of the game mode. you guys are confusing gametype with competition

as a GAMETYPE, ffa is more difficult

if the SAME players played FFA and SOLO - their win % in FFA would be lower.

You're talking about the level of competition of solo vs ffa. Obviously solo is far more popular and the level of competition and skill is far higher. If you filled FML with happy, lawliet, foggy, grubby, all those guys - or if you filled it with a bunch of noobs, it doesn't change the nature of the gametype.

As a gametype, FFA is a more difficult game. Maybe if it were more simple, it would be more popular.

Also if FML is so easy i'm surprised you still dodge ;)
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: ObserveAndLearn on March 02, 2018, 08:45:48 am
4v4 RT is the hardest mode. you've got 3 noobs dragging you down vs 4 opponents.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: xA-iZamatish4 on March 02, 2018, 04:10:08 pm
yes this is the hardest game mode. just because its less popular and has less skilled players, doesn't change the difficulty of the game mode. you guys are confusing gametype with competition

as a GAMETYPE, ffa is more difficult

if the SAME players played FFA and SOLO - their win % in FFA would be lower.

You're talking about the level of competition of solo vs ffa. Obviously solo is far more popular and the level of competition and skill is far higher. If you filled FML with happy, lawliet, foggy, grubby, all those guys - or if you filled it with a bunch of noobs, it doesn't change the nature of the gametype.

As a gametype, FFA is a more difficult game. Maybe if it were more simple, it would be more popular.

Also if FML is so easy i'm surprised you still dodge ;)

I highly agree here. FFA brings in other dimensions and variables in War3 that otherwise don't exist in SOLO matches. For example, the concept of diplomacy: this is the human element. In SOLO matches, you're only concerned with defeating the other opponent. In FFA, you need to be the last man standing.

Grubby himself gave a great commentary recently on Back2Warcraft where he explained some diplomacy fundamentals and even gave some tips that wouldn't exist in SOLO matches (his examples were on not killing off a base's buildings and farming the pillage off it, managing supply, and honorable players rewarding another player with leaving the game and allowing them to farm their live heroes)

I myself have played against some really great strategic players who have awful micro, but win purely off their execution of strategy.

The FFA game type is truly a great example of The Art of War.

To the comment about 10% win percentages - that's false.  Statistically, blending in all skill levels, your win percentage should be 25%. Just like in SOLO it should be 50%. The reason win percentages are higher on BNet are because skilled players are playing less-skilled competition. FML provides a great platform where everyone's skills are relatively on the same level - thus, giving all of us an approximate win chance of 25%.

Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Dovekie on March 02, 2018, 06:32:07 pm
So even though your win % is definitely lower in FFA, you only have to be 'good enough'. If you are 'good enough' (and that level isn't very high), then you are also soft capped with some sort of win % even if you are lower skill. You still win games often enough against people clearly above your skill level.

It's not like that in competitive solo, or a number of other disciplines.

Like I can into a track race with people out of my skill level. I will lose every race no matter what. I will have a 0% win rate, all the time.  In FFA, I can play with people who are all better than me, at micro / macro / manip / decision making / unit choices, etc. And I can win my fair share of games. But this also is just part of my opinion on how organized, competitive FFA makes absolutely zero logical sense without some sort of rigid ruleset that affects gameplay.

Also—no one said anything about being offended (though eshan might be because I don't agree that it's harder).
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: ZsSuperCumulo on March 02, 2018, 11:44:12 pm
There seems to be two groups of people regarding this discussion. Those of us who think FFA is nowhere near as difficult as solo and the others who think FFA is more difficult. In order to find some level of concensus, since in this day and age everyone has his and her own truth, we should first agree on some ground rules as to what constitutes "difficult".

I think itīs fair to say that all of us regard this set of skills as very important and difficult to master in warcraft 3:
- Micro
- Macro
- Timing (decision making)

Now, the better you are at this set of skills the more likely you are to win a game. So far with me? good. Now, if we were to give numbers for each individual skill from the set, from one to ten, where one means extremely poor at it and ten extremelly good at it, then we could assign this set of skills to any player and provide some way of measurement. Of course the way to measure it would be in some sense arbitrary, but letīs just say we use a reference point, that is the asian solo players who have the set of skills of 30, ten for each individual skill. Furthermore, the amount of points that any given player receives for the set of skills relative to the asian players would have to be calculated after thorough revision of replays.

Now, letīs not forget our main objective, that is to find a way to define "difficulty" between these two game types, FFA and solo. However, within these game types there are two scenes, the noob scene and competitive scene and since we are playing in a competitive FFA league, Iīll base my points for the competitive one. The noob scene is a shitshow of unbearing distress anyway.

Caracteristics of solo gametype at the competitive scene
- The game length in minutes: from ten to twenty
- Average points for the set of skills: here I will assume that anything below seven for each individual skill takes you out from the competitive scene. So letīs just say that most solo players fall between eight to nine, which yields an average of 24 to 27 pts in total.
- The map selection: most maps are very small, hence making the games short. This also means that the resources you can get from the map are very limited; e.g. levels, items and gold.
- The mentality of the players: itīs not surprise that, in most cases, players go at each other from minute two, as soon as their heroes come out; so you as a player have a difficult time defending as well as harrassing, and all of this with levels one or two.
- The food limit: battles are won or lost, mostly, with armies less than or equal to fifty.
- Scouting: Constantly done, mainly by the constant pressure of harrasment.
- Number of heroes per player: between two and three.
- Main base upgrade: tier two or tier three.
- Outcome of the game: if you win or lose itīs all on you.

Caracteristics of FFA gametype at the competitive scene
- The game length in minutes: from 60 to 180
- Average points for the set of skills: here I will assume that anything below four for each individual skill takes you out from the competitive scene. So letīs just say that most FFA players fall between four to eight, which yields an average of 12 to 24 pts in total.
- The map selection: most maps are large in general, hence making the games quite long. This also means that the resources you can get from the map are very abundant; e.g. levels, items and gold.
- The mentality of the players: players simply assume that they can do almost anything they want without anyone standing in their way, it is as if there had been an implicit preteam among all players not to attack each other for the first ten to twenty minutes.
- The food limit: battles are won or lost, mostly, with armies greater than or equal to eighty.
- Scouting: this is done very little if itīs done at all since players rely mostly on the whining from other players.
- Number of heroes per player: three.
- Main base upgrade: tier three.
- Outcome of the game: if you win or lose, it wasnīt all you.

With the caractheristics of each game type out of the way Iīll move on to explain why solo is far more difficult than FFA. Again, my arguments will be based on the ground rules Iīve written above. I think most of you would agree with a lot of what Iīve written so far, so letīs move on to the matter at hand.

1) Is the game length important? Yes. In solo,with such a short period of time, any little mistake can quickly snowball into your demise. For example losing militia while creeping, being harrased and have your items or xp stolen, losing units or your hero in an early enagagement. Any of this events dramatically decrease your chances of winning; while in FFA if any of the previous events happen you are fine as long as the other player(s) have mercy on you. As a matter of fact, weīve seen FML players who have won a season after losing their heroes while creeping with no one harrasing; which in my opinion is a complete disgrace to the "competitive scene". One last point, if you think that the longer it gets the more difficult it becomes, I donīt think thatīs necessarily true since you have more time to prepare and counter, but there are also other variables which I would rather keep out of this post since they are not included in the set of skills.

2)  What about the point difference for the set of skills from both game types? Well, in solo, if player "X1" has a set of skills greater than player "X2" then the former should always win. In FFA if player "X1" has a set of skills greater than players "X2,X3, and X4" then eventhough the better player should always win, he will find himself occasionally losing due to teaming and manippulation, behaviours that I did not take into account for the set of skills. And yes I know you will say that those two should be included in the set of skills, specially for ffa, but Iīm trying to keep it as simple as possible with Micro, Macro and Timing. Besides, what is so skilled about saying "hey, player "X1" is strong, letīs team him!" or constantly chat and lie about the situation of the game just to benefit yourself. In any case, despite the fact that the set of skills I stablished coincide in both game types, this set of skills is more important and relevant in solo than in the FFA. Since itīs valued more in solo it takes more time to master and make the scene far more difficult; unlike FFA where two players with sets of kills of 15 each could easily beat somone as Yaws for example with a set of of skills of 27.
Now eventhough Iīm trying to use reasonable numbers, one could argue that you can not simply add set of skills, it would be like five morons being more intelligent than Albert Einsten, but when it comes to warcraft and the manegement of large armies, it is extremely difficult to defend off against two 80 or 100 population armies, no matter who you are.

3) Lastly, some were saying that with all things being equal, solo players have 50% chances of winning while in ffa itīs 25%; so since the percentage of winning in FFA is lower then it must be more difficult. The one problem I have with this argument is that eventhough the odds are against you, 25% less than in solo, this ideal game where all players, X1,X2,X3 and X4, are identical clones will rarely ever be witnessed. In other words, you will have players with different set of skills in one game and if player "X1" with a minimum set of skills, that is 12 pts, has 10% chance of winning a FFA, that doesntīt mean that the difficulty of the gametype is higher than solo, it just means that player "X1" will have a harder time winning.
What Iīm trying to say is that what makes something difficult is the amount of time it takes to master it, and how well you execute it in a given period of time. Solo is the pure expression of the set of skills from warcraft 3. FFA relies on many other factors such as being surrounded, getting teamed, having free time to do whatever you want, being lazy about scouting yet have a roughly good idea about whatīs going on else where,etc.

Anyway, I think I can speak about this subject since I was a solo player for a long time and did quite well in the amateur leagues. I suppose the main reason some of us still play FFA instead of solo is because in FFA you can at least accomplish something, even with a set of skills of 12 pts, while in solo that will get you nowhere. Not to mention, if you lose in FFA, you can always blame someone else rather than yourself while in solo itīs all your fault making it more difficult to realize the cold truth, that you donīt have what it takes.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Peregrine on March 03, 2018, 01:00:07 am
wow i didnt read cumulos post when i realized his attempt at simplification was an 11 paragraph essay. also when he took diplomacy out of 'set of skills' i assumed it was gonna be a biased argument. So im gonna skip that and go right to:

@Dovekie  - i admit i see your point about always having a chance to win in FFA, while in other gametypes you may have 0% chance to win if your opponent is better. That's a good point. Solo is a binary gametype. AT/RT are more variable. And FFA has quite a bit of chaos.

Just like you say ffa is less difficult because you always have a chance to win, I also believe that FFA is MORE difficult because no matter how good you are, you can always lose. Solo is like a track race, FFA is much more like War. (Craft.)

Its more difficult to 'master' the FFA gametype. But I see your point about the other end of the spectrum, so I'm happy to say that FFA is a more 'complex' gametype than solo. Since you can always win, but no matter how good you are, you can also always lose.

Its much more difficult to have a high win % in FFA, but also easier to get a win when you are less skilled.

In the end thats why i prefer FFA to solo. While solo is just a nuclear arms race with one weapon: micro

FFA is a complex gametype with so many different ways and strategies that can help you win, so many outcomes, and thus it provides a richer experience that has kept me coming back for over 10 years.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: ZsSuperCumulo on March 03, 2018, 09:51:13 am
lol, diplomacy is just another fancy word for manipulation. As for the complex line, there is a lot going on in competitive solo that demands a higher level of attention than in ffa. The only complex aspect of ffa, for everyone, is the three way; however, this is nowhere near as complicated at handling a rival in 1v1 whoīs constantly hammering your ass from the gecko.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: xA-iZamatish4 on March 03, 2018, 10:44:12 am
@ZsSuperCumulo  - I agree with your previous points (not your last post) - however, Eshan's logic still stands.

Diplomacy may include a level of manipulation - but it's still another variable.

I believe you may be misunderstanding what we're saying about complexity.  In an FFA, you could very well have 1,2 or even 3 players 'hammering your ass from the gecko' .

[x,y,z] = more complex than [t] , however, that's not to say that x > t or that x+y > t.

I like Eshan's analogy with a nuclear arms race. It's true - in solo, you can't deny you're in a race of time against one other player.  All we are saying is that in FFA, there are many more variables to consider.

Even in solo - bigger maps add more complexity. More numbers and variables will always bring in greater complexity.

Personally, I love the FFA game type as I'm rarely ever 'done'. Even if my base is destroyed, I can buy enough time to rebuild. I found solo matches quite frequently end so prematurely. Players will make one mistake and then "GG".  That's so underwhelming to me...
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: htrt on March 03, 2018, 10:14:53 pm
in ffa the game can (and will) shape itself around your mistake(s), with the last mistakes becoming more and more critical and less forgiving

in solo you will get shit on for every mistake no matter how tiny

ffa is not the place to compare skill, solo is

ffa is fun, solo is not

or so I think
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: ZsSuperCumulo on March 03, 2018, 10:23:45 pm
in ffa the game can (and will) shape itself around your mistake(s), with the last mistakes becoming more and more critical and less forgiving

in solo you will get shit on for every mistake no matter how tiny

ffa is not the place to compare skill, solo is

ffa is fun, solo is not

or so I think

HTRT has spoken

(https://s26.postimg.org/3on0jjsbd/htrt.jpg)
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: SteppinRazor on March 04, 2018, 09:56:30 am
Solo has a far higher skill cap then FFA.  In theory, FFA is harder to win (25%) then a solo (50%) assuming generally equally skilled player but that does not mean FFA is harder to master then solo.  In FFA, if you have good micro, gold management, and understand the gametype you can be a very strong player.  Solo requires a tremendous in-depth understanding of every matchup, every map and its affect on every matchup, pin-point timing (sometimes literally 10 seconds window of opportunity), and punishes tiny mistakes ridiculously hard.  The guys who are top solo pros have to play like 12 hours a day to maintain that level of skill. 

That being said, I hate solo and would rather play FFA any day ;D
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: FML|WorpeX on March 04, 2018, 10:05:23 am
Love this discussion, but that was really just a throwaway line to talk up the game-type this league is about.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Peregrine on March 05, 2018, 11:04:45 am
Yea but I wrote that line so i'm defending it :P

"Solo requires a tremendous in-depth understanding of every matchup, every map and its affect on every matchup, pin-point timing (sometimes literally 10 seconds window of opportunity), and punishes tiny mistakes ridiculously hard. "

When you guys say stuff like this - thats because of the level of COMPETITION, not the GAMETYPE.

If FFA treated as competitively as solo, with so many players who dedicate their time to it, then FFA would also punish every single tiny mistake too, because the level of competition would be so high. Just because less skilled players play FFA, doesn't mean the GAMETYPE is less skilled.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: dv on March 05, 2018, 11:20:08 am
in FFA mistakes not always lead you to lose and sometimes even lead you to victory which is ridiculous in context of sports related competition
That's pretty much it. Bad play rewarded by victory = bad sport = not something that you can call "hard competition"
FFA is hard just because it simply has 4 players and therefore less chance for win to each of participators. Its artificial "difficulty".

Wanna have most difficult competition mode? 1000 players FFA. Imagine how hard it would be!

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: Peregrine on March 05, 2018, 11:51:48 am
actually you make a great point even if you were being sarcastic

a 1000 player ffa WOULD be much higher difficulty (even if mistakes could help you win etc)

FFA with 4 players or 6 or 8 or 12 or 1000, is harder difficulty to win than 1v1.

Take any two average wc3 players and put them in 1v1, they have 50% chance to win.

Take any average wc3 players and put them in 4way ffa, they have 25%.

You guys never studied data/statistics/research methods? You have to control for all players, right now you are making a biased argument based on skilltype.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: FML|WorpeX on March 05, 2018, 01:35:15 pm
I think Eshan brings up good points. I think its the level of competition which really makes Solo so difficult right now. FFA is a niche gametype and not many players play it. The level of competition isn't that high. To win FML you need to be an above average FFA player but you don't need to be any good at solo.

If the level of competition in FFA was higher, the whole meta would change I think. Right now the meta caters towards low micro, high macro players. Small mistakes, especially early game, rarely matter because of this. This generally means playing "smarter" and trying to win economically or diplomatically.

Over the years of FML, we have seen many players come from a solo background which is high micro - low macro style. Some have come into the league and completely changed the meta like Trunks, Duck, Rain and Magadansky. How would the Meta look if we had all players on their skill level? Hard to say, but I know FFA would not look the same as it does now.
Title: Re: Beginners FML FFA Guide
Post by: FML|HighTac on March 15, 2018, 08:31:51 am
Back to #1