FFA Masters League
General => News => Topic started by: FML|WorpeX on November 27, 2011, 10:16:44 pm
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:FMLN:
After possibly the worst FML week since Season 9, we have finally come to a new week where we can all start again. Even though we had many players come very close to either leaving the league or getting removed completely, we come into week 3 with only one new player. :Germany: Lightweight has replaced the Swedish powerhouse of :Sweden: Brain.Man. We wish Brain.man luck in his future endeavors and hope that he joins us again in the coming seasons!
Now! The first thing that needs to be said is that from now on the league will not be tolerating any pre-teaming or full-game teaming. These two tactics are clearly designed for the purpose of defeating players that cannot be beaten alone based upon their name and not in game actions. This also encourages unfair and unsportsmanlike conduct. Not to mention that it makes games painful to watch and destroys any spectator value.
So lets turn this league back on track and make week 3 the best week in recent history! We have a complete change in playstyle this week as the goldmine and creep count gets a large cut. Games are expected to be much shorter with lots of action!
Map: Deadlock
:Dead_Lock_2:
M17
:Russia: :orc: y.zenchenko
:Romania: :human: Q-veta
:Sweden: :random: DkH.Starshaped
:USA: :human: L77
M18
:USA: :random: DarkMessiah
:France: :human: JoHnY.BoY
:USA: :ud: PLZLEAVEDUCK
:Finland: :random: DkH.Rain
M19
:Canada: :ne: Renaud
:Russia: :human: w8man
:USA: :orc: DarKNeSSCaLLsMe
:Canada: :random: rebuke[skynet]
M20
:Germany: :ud: Kruppe
:Germany: :human: Humans7ar
:Bulgaria: :ud: 3wD.SimO
:Canada: :random: killyoself
M21
:France: :ud: ugrilainen
:Canada: :human: Kajetan
:Poland: :hu: QHKane
:Canada: :hu: Mr.Wrecktify
M22
:Germany: :ne: darkermirror
:Canada: :ud: Walking.TRL
:Germany: :random: Slythe
:USA: :ud: UnholydreadlorD
M23
:Canada: :random: rygorych
:USA: :random: Persuade
:Canada: :random: paterique
:Austria: :orc: DasElend
M24
:Germany: :orc: Pinballmap
:USA: :ud: SteppinRazor
:Germany: :random: Lightweight
:USA: :ud: Red7z7
Deadline: Sunday, December 11th
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full-game teaming
Preteaming is self-explanatory but some more clarification on "full-game teaming" would probably be a good idea. Because for example, I assume you don't see the game with Q + Renaud as falling under this category, even though technically they teamed the entire game until the 1v1.
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I think it falls under the definition of 'teaming with the intent of raising your own chances AND/OR your teammate's chances of winning the game over the other two players'
this basically means that if you have an interest in helping another player raise their chances of winning in a way that doesn't raise your own (or even lowers your own), then you are not playing purely for the win, and you have a conflict of interest. In normal scenarios, teaming is done only when it purely helps your chances based on in-game information. Under this definition, suiciding in a 3way would be legal only if it is based on ingame circumstances. Because someone preteaming could say they were 'only suiciding' when in fact they were trying to help their teammate all along.
its a situation that the walking/rabbit game would fall under, but the Q renaud game would not, as walking's actions at times helped rabbit but actually lowered his own chances. Whereas, Q and renaud were at all times raising their own chances (in a very pathetic way :p ).
also, since its a subjective rule (open to a bit of interpretation and argument), cases should be decided by the admins alone (minus ugri/renaud/darknesss if they are involved in the game), but the admins should atleast open a topic thread where people can voice their opinions before making a decision. I believe worp/renaud/ugri/darkness are fair and will take into account people's opinions in coming to a correct decision.
Things that must be considered in these cases would be -
1. Whether or not the teaming was with the same person all game.
2. Whether it was based purely on in-game circumstances or there seemed to be other motives (like two players being related/friends, or two players hating each other).
3. Whether the teaming, at times, actually lowered one's chances to win while helping the teammate's (given the information that was available in the game at the time)
4. Whether the teaming was concealed behind attempts to make it 'seem like' they weren't teaming. (In Bnet, several times preteamers fight with each other a bit to make it seem like they aren't together.) We have very smart players in this league, so if someone was truly preteaming/full game teaming, its likely they will try to hide it.
5. Its very rare that someone will actually be doing any of this, so the number of cases we have may be close to 0. Basically we shouldn't be quick to condemn anyone. Instead we should be deliberate and really consider all the information.
Hope people take the time to read this and offer their honest opinion! I'm just trying to help make this a clear situation. Please add to it/destroy it/criticize/praise whatever you feel about it. Particularly interested in what the admins have to say =) (yes i know darkness isnt an admin but damn he should be involved in these decisions i think )
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btw, i'm not done reading, but i love how you included darkness as an admin!
edit: awww i finally read your last line!
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yeah, maybe i would even suggest having a 5th judge who isn't an admin, just so there won't be a split decision, and there would be a variety in opinons. personally i would nominate fly or flameseeker because they aren't actively involved so they wouldn't be as biased towards current players, and they also have tons of FFA knowledge/experience.
FML supreme court!
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full-game teaming
Preteaming is self-explanatory but some more clarification on "full-game teaming" would probably be a good idea. Because for example, I assume you don't see the game with Q + Renaud as falling under this category, even though technically they teamed the entire game until the 1v1.
It was intentionally vague and actually I had the Q + Renaud game in mind. Basically, pre-teaming w/o saying anything before the game starts, doing all that within the initial 5min.
btw, i'm not done reading, but i love how you included darkness as an admin!
edit: awww i finally read your last line!
What?
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Chief Justice Worpex, presiding
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There was some Poland(or maybe Sweden dunno) FFA league which had the same rule about teaming, and all laughed at it on forum. But now we have the same feeling about it. But I think there werent full-teaming games except for Maga's game. Dark.Messiah did a mistake himself killing human in his game, becouse he knew other two players were hoarding. Then those two players thought they hoarded more then the opponent and ofc "the third" would been annoyng, especially on GoldRush...
But of course there was shit in Maga's game in my opinion. The players who playing in the league just should have some virtue and not to team player if you cant kill one of his gargs in fight, but just admit defeat and maybe leave. Especially Kane, who fought DasElend in R1 without reason, and who cant even build decent army vs undead(a few hawks, a few morts, a few...that sucks, just make 6 tanks and 10 gyros with 2 casters...)
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I've read.
Worpex meant by full game teaming exactly what happened in Q/Renaud/Eshan game : 2 guys peacing then when the 3 ways in on, focusing the 3rd guy to get the 1vs1.
It is surely even more difficult to judge than preteaming, and decision will be taken carefully. As for the public debate I'm not sure about it, I can see it turning in a flame fest when the players involved answer to the admin posts.
As for fly and flameseeker, they dont want to bother playing so doing boring admin stuff....
Frankly as I stated on the warning thread : brotherhood case is unlikely to happen again, Q/Renaud case more likely and it will be judged according to the new guidelines. Q is the most "hi peace" user in the league so I suppose that players just need to be carefull and keep an eye on him and his neighbour in case they stick at 50 and hoard while p3 and p4 pwn each other.
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Oh yeah and lol Darkness isnt an admin... yet :icon_mrgreen:
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Well by opening forum thread, I meant let the players who were in the game state their arguments, and admins don't have to respond, they can just take it into consideration.
The Q renaud thing wouldnt have been as big of a deal if they didn't use PM. When players team like that using PM, its very hard for the other two players to realize it, especially on a big map like gold rush (or upcoming deadlock). When hustar hit me, i was focused on surviving, it was harder to scout what renaud and Q are doing.
But if they did it using all-chat it would be easier to counter. Im not saying ban PM chat...but whether or not someone uses PM the whole game to team with another player might be an important factor. The only way to counter that without being at a huge disadvantage is to team up with hustar myself using PM. Then we just have a mass 2v2 PM game.
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There was some Poland(or maybe Sweden dunno) FFA league which had the same rule about teaming, and all laughed at it on forum
That league was linked on our forums, and their rule basically said "no teaming whatsoever", it's not the same rule as the one Worpex is saying, and also their strict rule honestly is :icon_eek:, because teaming will happen naturally in an FFA, whether intentional or unintentional.
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Well this is going to be subjective as hell, and I see why you guys are leaving it as vague as possible.
Personally, I team to the end. I consider this: if I backstab someone I peaced with, they might suicide me for it.
However, I normally offer a temporary truce in the beginning, and I specifically warn that I will attack at some point later on. Later in game, though, I peace to the end, once I selected my teammate carefully. If, for example, I'm in a scenario with
Noob
Me
Darkness
And Darkness is down on his knees after being 3v1ed, while Noob is hoarding, I'll still go ahead and finish Darkness. When you are facing a very strong player using strongest heroes/army/race imaginable, I see no sense in letting them recover. I would judge my chances as being higher against a hoarded noob than against a beaten down Darkness.
Re: teaming based on name alone - how does that not make sense? I know Maga goes the ud triple cheese every game and has very strong micro. I know he can beat anyone in the league 1v1 and if I leave him alone, he WILL tome someone to high lvl heroes (what happened in M11).
Now if Maga, for example, suddenly goes NE with tinker and firelord, I might take him as less of a threat. I'd realize he is feigning weakness with the intent of not being teamed, and it would work, because then I would look at who else might be cheesing and hit/team vs them instead.
So my advice to anyone who doesn't want to be teamed based on name alone - change up your strat... learn to feign weakness better. This is FFA, not solo.
And personally, instead of the no full game teaming rule, I'd prefer "no priv chat" rule. Myself being the priv chat queen, it says alot if I want that rule instituted.
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Dear Sirs,
Kruppe prefers too an end to private messaging. Peace or truce can be made in open chat, no reason for PM. Also, this would give the 2 non-teaming players the opportunity to adapt the situation.
Furthermore I like to bring a strategical issue up:
The 2 1vs1 often played ("he won his 1vs1") is by all means no FFA. It's 2 solos ending in another solo. Please get deeper into FFA strategy.
Greetings,
Kruppe
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It was intentionally vague and actually I had the Q + Renaud game in mind. Basically, pre-teaming w/o saying anything before the game starts, doing all that within the initial 5min.
Well the way you phrased it the "full game teaming" thing doesn't apply to me or Renaud because we didn't team based on some player's reputation. If anything that applies most to the Magadansky/Starshaped/Ebo/QHKane game.
Also looks like I can ask for peace after 5 minutes and everything is peachy. Seems like there's plenty of loopholes to exploit in your new rule.
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I am down with both private chat and full teaming. (no surprise here)
EDIT: And also, it was the worst week because the shitty Gold rush made it to the map pool. Just remove it next time because it is a pain of a map.
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It was intentionally vague and actually I had the Q + Renaud game in mind. Basically, pre-teaming w/o saying anything before the game starts, doing all that within the initial 5min.
Well the way you phrased it the "full game teaming" thing doesn't apply to me or Renaud because we didn't team based on some player's reputation. If anything that applies most to the Magadansky/Starshaped/Ebo/QHKane game.
Also looks like I can ask for peace after 5 minutes and everything is peachy. Seems like there's plenty of loopholes to exploit in your new rule.
Its not a rule. It's a warning. It isn't official nor are their any plans to make it official at this time.
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These things happened in ladder I'm not sure why they would be a rule against it. It seems to be a rule against a very small number of players. I propose a new rule, anyone with apm over 150 should get deducted 5 points and if it's over 200 they should be deducted 10 points. It seems arbitrary like the thing you suggested and it punishes a very small number of players. It seems fair.
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Well, Q, I'm a low apm player who wins mostly through smart teaming, and I'm OK with no priv chat - I think it just makes for more exciting games, which, in the end, keeps the league and FFA overall, alive.
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on bnet, especially with humans, this map has been always a hoarder map. so i donīt expect too many short games, but overall OFC quicker ones than on goldrush.
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can we just give the second player/winner 5 points more? xD they willl more care ;D
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DRAMAAAAAAAAAAA!!1!1!!!ONE
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can we just give the second player/winner 5 points more? xD they willl more care ;D
Clearly, we need to give people more incentive not to play for the win.
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Lol@this thread.
Remember in round 1, match6, when Darkness cried for help and slythe walked across the map to his base to save him? Isn't that the same scenario (but worse) then me just walking across the map with 3 heroes/fiends and harassing a player who is rushing someone? And player gets rushed, asks for help, and gets it. Pretty standard to me.
Is there any rule about talking strategy before a game happens? After watching how successful the Q/Renaud game was, how was it not benefitical to say something like "Hey if we are by ourselves/neighboors on the map lets peace". So the game started and I asked him where he was. Woah we were together.
I never saved him, I never went into his base to help fight off another player. I once walked up with 3 heroes, used coil/nova and walked away. I only continued to harass a player that (Note: I started to harass far before he wanted to walk anywhere near Rabbi't base) because when you hoard with 50 food its boring as hell and he just harassed me. It gave me something to do.
In any FFA match, you play the people in your match. Just like Q and Renaud did. Q/Renaud did what they did because they knew each other, not because it was just random Player 1/2 teaming and a lot of trust.
My brother and I never coordinated any attacks, never really planned anything. We both just whined when we were being attacked and hoped the other did something, just like every other FFA player in every damn FML game. Like Renaud said, we both just wanted to hit the guy who was hellbent on suiciding either of us (like how he continued to throw his heroes at my third base harassing me).
If you are going to say "No full teaming," why not put "no full suiciding?" The game I would refer most to so far is Round1, Match2 where Kane gave Renaud the win because he wanted to tank all of Daseland's buildings for no reason at the end of the game, giving himself and Daselend no chance of winning for no reason whatsoever.
Now, why don't you put this rule in? Because its all subjective. FFA is a game where you do what it takes to win. We bitch, whine, backstab, trick, lie, undermine, hide buildings, team, harass, etc.... anything to win because its game about micro/chatting/marco and the best player can't always win.
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can we just give the second player/winner 5 points more? xD they willl more care ;D
Clearly, we need to give people more incentive not to play for the win.
Give second 9 points if they don't get top in scoring, 11 points if they do get top in scoring. Problem solved!
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Well, for once I agree with Walking, on the macro level of course. In terms of that particular game - M13 -, conflict of interest WAS present in his match, and we just need to be more careful with that in the future (cough /sensored/ cough). The least subjective solution to this would be to 1. disallow priv chat (if there is cause for concern, admins request player's replay version) 2. not invite potential conflict of interest in the future.
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In any FFA match, you play the people in your match. Just like Q and Renaud did. Q/Renaud did what they did because they knew each other, not because it was just random Player 1/2 teaming and a lot of trust.
Actually for the first 30 minutes I was constantly expecting my base to get chimed to death.
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lol, yeah, I was scared Q would tank me out of fear of being chimed :P
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I was scared you were going to chim out of fear of being tanked by Q who feared you were going to chim him... and then Eshan would win.
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My brother and I never coordinated any attacks, never really planned anything.
Except you know, at the start of the game, right?
(00:11 / Walking.TrL) KiLLyoSeLF: f!&# im tired
(00:19 / KiLLyoSeLF) Walking.TrL: where you at
(00:28 / Walking.TrL) KiLLyoSeLF: bottom left
(00:29 / KiLLyoSeLF) Walking.TrL: i had to work at 6 today
(00:33 / KiLLyoSeLF) Walking.TrL: i am left mid
(00:45 / Walking.TrL) KiLLyoSeLF: k scout up and i scout right
Is this also why you both refuse to upload your version of the replay? Because you "never planned anything!"
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Oh wow, there is a priv chat version of this somewhere?
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no; rabbit posted the chat in the original replay
btw, how are we suppose to call rabbit?
rabbit/killyoself/ugh?
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Lol@this thread.
Remember in round 1, match6, when Darkness cried for help and slythe walked across the map to his base to save him? Isn't that the same scenario (but worse) then me just walking across the map with 3 heroes/fiends and harassing a player who is rushing someone? And player gets rushed, asks for help, and gets it. Pretty standard to me.
Is there any rule about talking strategy before a game happens? After watching how successful the Q/Renaud game was, how was it not benefitical to say something like "Hey if we are by ourselves/neighboors on the map lets peace". So the game started and I asked him where he was. Woah we were together.
I never saved him, I never went into his base to help fight off another player. I once walked up with 3 heroes, used coil/nova and walked away. I only continued to harass a player that (Note: I started to harass far before he wanted to walk anywhere near Rabbi't base) because when you hoard with 50 food its boring as hell and he just harassed me. It gave me something to do.
In any FFA match, you play the people in your match. Just like Q and Renaud did. Q/Renaud did what they did because they knew each other, not because it was just random Player 1/2 teaming and a lot of trust.
My brother and I never coordinated any attacks, never really planned anything. We both just whined when we were being attacked and hoped the other did something, just like every other FFA player in every damn FML game. Like Renaud said, we both just wanted to hit the guy who was hellbent on suiciding either of us (like how he continued to throw his heroes at my third base harassing me).
If you are going to say "No full teaming," why not put "no full suiciding?" The game I would refer most to so far is Round1, Match2 where Kane gave Renaud the win because he wanted to tank all of Daseland's buildings for no reason at the end of the game, giving himself and Daselend no chance of winning for no reason whatsoever.
Now, why don't you put this rule in? Because its all subjective. FFA is a game where you do what it takes to win. We bitch, whine, backstab, trick, lie, undermine, hide buildings, team, harass, etc.... anything to win because its game about micro/chatting/marco and the best player can't always win.
Mysteries of nature : why can you talk so clearly and cleverly while.... nvm.
You were definitely trying to save your brother with the harass. I wish you just have let him die (I know it's hard but Cain did it) and then we would have had a 3 ways with a rich as fuck johny and a high level LW. The show would have been nice, kinda like M16 scenario. Johny would have had to break 50 earlier.
About the "full teaming rule" I agree with you, it is a mess to enforce
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Teaming isn't the issue,
its when you team even if it slightly hurts your own chances of winning because you have an interest in seeing your teammate do well.
The teaming in renaud/Q game is very different from that in the walking/rabbit game.
Walking you can write essays on essays but anyone who watches that replay in its entirety will see you often help rabbit, when it is clearly in your best interest to hoard or to attack johny. LW didn't suicide anyone, he tried to take out a player who he knew disliked him. And then he tried to finish you guys because you both were teaming him hard, letting johny hoard.
Also, I'm against taking away private chat. I rarely ever ever use it, and it screwed me over in the last game, and people like Ebo use it in pathetic slimy ways, but its still part of the game and taking it away would be wrong. It wasn't too long ago where I was a no micro noob like Ebo, trying to get Fly 3v1d so we have to keep the game winnable for all players. Thats what makes FFA special.
PS, in a couple of years I got a lot better at everything Ebo. Its funny that you actually call me a micro player now because the first time i had rank 1 i was 70apm. This is why they still call me a manip master because thats all i used. But its a mystery to me why you are still stuck at your 2003 noob level after 9 years. Dont believe in Ebolution?
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The debate over private chat sends me 5 years in the past during the long fury / lone war!
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considering renaud private chatted to beat the fury chieftain, i think fury won that war =)
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I don't believe in micro. Also, my fingers are bad. If I wanted to try and improve my micro and actually play a game where micro really mattered, I'd stick with solo. FFA is about politics, not micro :)
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Walking you can write essays on essays
Y U WANT MORE?
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Walking you can write essays on essays
Y U WANT MORE?
actually i'd like one in your scheduling topic
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Walking you can write essays on essays
Y U WANT MORE?
actually i'd like one in your scheduling topic
Yes boss!
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You were definitely trying to save your brother with the harass. I wish you just have let him die (I know it's hard but Cain did it)
lol
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cain din't let his brother die... he killed him
there is a slight difference!
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cain din't let his brother die... he killed him
there is a slight difference!
i thought the exact same and laughed my ass off:D