FFA Masters League
General => General Discussion => Topic started by: fetta_ook on September 19, 2016, 09:55:01 AM
-
So, this is a spinoff to the earlier thread about the players that are currently on top level for each race. This is also something has been annoying me a lot.
The past seasons we have seen a declining trend for the success of the orcish horde in ffa and the experienced players talk themselves hard by reminiscing about the glory days of good orcs like Nline, Flash and Ludix. The way the scene has developed to what it is today, is more of a long term strategy game where the teaming goes back and forth which means that advantages are adjusted so that in the end all players have converging positions. This is great, this is one of the reasons why I love ffa. However, there is an exception to this, a monumental one. Orcs.
Nowadays it is consensus that if there is an Orc in the game: rush him out.
If, God forbid, the Orc manages to survive, he might get very strong hero combination of BM, SH and TC, a combination described as cheated by any non-Orc player. If the game gets to that point, then we have consensus #2: Orc heroes are cheated, lets team him until he is defeated. (Lex: last seasons semi final).
This means that it is literally impossible to win a high skilled game as Orc. To be able to win a game as Orc you have two alternatives: suck hard, but stash gold. This was what I did in season 21 semifinal at Deathrose vs SEKSI and DV. The only other viable strategy is to absolutely steamroll the map, which obviously is impossible in a skilled FML game.
The conclusion is that the playing Orc in FML is very, very disadvantageous, almost like a moment-22. Do you survive the first push: if no: "defeated"; if yes=> then "cheated heroes" => then "defeated". A complete dead end.
One last comment is that I can't stand players that usually are quite intelligent and rational like Maga, but when it comes to Orc, everything he has to say when he loses is: "cheated Orc race". The funny thing tho, is that you never hear him even mention the "cheatedness"of the UD early 80 push on Orc, because those you always win, 99% of the times and you won't have to even break sweat.
I'm not calling for any kind of petition "leave us orcs alone", this was rather just my thoughts on what has become a tedious fucking topic: "sigh, there are no good orcs delivering results in FML...."
-
That's the price you must pay for drinking the blood of Mannoroth
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u217/Cumulovirgo/Tumblr_nadoz2yMTz1rwlf4vo1_500_zpslv6tyf9s.gif) (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/Cumulovirgo/media/Tumblr_nadoz2yMTz1rwlf4vo1_500_zpslv6tyf9s.gif.html)
-
If you really wanna set yourself free, you must go back to your roots and start using far seer again!; just like the good old days of 05, 06 when orc was defined by farseer TC or farseer SH in solo vs every race :).
-
the lack of orcs is everywhere on the western scene, not only in ffa :)
-
Orc is hard in FML because of the ridiculous late game imbaness of bm/tc/sh. No one enjoys getting orced by it (when you need to play soooo much better to win against it than the other way round). Human is also imba, but orc is prone to getting rushed, while human usually is not that easy to rush ( should done more often, anyway)
Four times an orc won the FML, three times it was offrace/random (sk2flash, who is undead, right? and Rain & F-l-y )
I cannot recall the races or players they were against but that maybe would play a role aswell (human usually does not fear orc, ud and elf often do)
The best orcs i played are still Daselend (was first in season and got rushed by htrt while daselend being surrounded), Nline, YZ , who had either super strong micro or great game sense and diplomatics. Others super strong orcs are Ostone and Ludix, who also both relied on excellent control and fighting, rather than manips/gamesense.
Imo, todayīs orcs are either lacking great micro, very good game sense or
donīt think outside the box imo. But sometimes it was just bad luck or concidence aswell, they could not get more points.
If i were a orc player (and besides ud itīs maybe my favourite race to play)
I would pick another first hero than BM/DR, donīt go TC or SH, scout more and know when and from where danger is lurking.
-
Just our community not have orcs with win rete > 50% in solo ladder !!!!
fetta 1 x 1 get 3-6 ; 1-4 ; 4-10 stats ! )))))
Fetta - how you can be great if you not have great micro ???????!!!!!!!!
i respected you bro - and not wanna you mad on me - just think little about this
DEAR ORCS - train your micro and love this race pls
P.S. => Soso you was - right !
-
Nowadays it is consensus that if there is an Orc in the game: rush him out.
If, God forbid, the Orc manages to survive, he might get very strong hero combination of BM, SH and TC, a combination described as cheated by any non-Orc player. If the game gets to that point, then we have consensus #2: Orc heroes are cheated, lets team him until he is defeated. (Lex: last seasons semi final).
This means that it is literally impossible to win a high skilled game as Orc. To be able to win a game as Orc you have two alternatives: suck hard, but stash gold. This was what I did in season 21 semifinal at Deathrose vs SEKSI and DV. The only other viable strategy is to absolutely steamroll the map, which obviously is impossible in a skilled FML game.
Hey you now see things the way I do to some degree! In an organized high skilled game, it just isn't fair. Nelf/Undead do better than they should, worse players have a higher chance of winning than they should, and its impossible to win too many times in a row. You are experiencing what follows after the domination of Orcs before you.
-
The first time I agree with Fetta on anything
I've played Orc in every game this season so far, either by random or by choice. I got teamed/rushed out of game 1. I had a luck win in game 2, I was able to dominate in game 3, as a result I got teamed out by two FML champions in game 4 while they hoarded 20k.
So either frustrating over-teaming, luck wins, or complete domination.
-
Teamed because of name - not race :-)
-
See. The three eternal antagonists, me, eshan and dovekie agreeing on something. We obviously must be on to something, something big...
-
I was able to dominate in game 3, as a result I got teamed out by two FML champions in game 4 while they hoarded 20k.
So either frustrating over-teaming, luck wins, or complete domination.
rofl, you hoarded more than Wreck or me for that matter, and got teamed because you were on the lead -.-
-
It's only the past few seasons that orc has been lacking. Few seasons ago, Ludix, Ostone, and Nline were tearing it up. Before that, Lightweight, Persuade, even Seksi (when orc) were also dominate.
A lot of the orcs today seem to prefer towering, hoarding, manip while most top orcs were more aggressive. Orc is similar to undead in regards to the need for high level heroes to dominate, but opposite in the fact that they get exponentially stronger later in the game while undead gets weaker. I would say that orc is the worst race in terms of early game macro, and over time players of other races have learned to exploit this better and better. But even then, I would argue that any decent orc should be able to scout and macro well enough to put up resistance against most 80 food pushes.
-
The problem isnt about whether orc is weak
Its about the fact that the orc is always the lightning rod for teaming. two non-orc players, even two champions like wreck and cumulo, who are sitting on 15k+ gold would rather completely team out an orc than fight each other even once
@cumulo - YOU were in the lead. I was broke with high level heroes from fighting two players.
-
The problem isnt about whether orc is weak
Its about the fact that the orc is always the lightning rod for teaming. two non-orc players, even two champions like wreck and cumulo, who are sitting on 15k+ gold would rather completely team out an orc than fight each other even once
@cumulo - YOU were in the lead. I was broke with high level heroes from fighting two players.
lol was I? you were toming me while wreck sat at 80 chatting ...
-
I agree with fetta first post, it's hard to win with Orc. But it has always been like this, people team each other until a point where everyone has about the same chance to win the game, there is nothing new about this.
Let's be honest, todays orc suck, that's the main reason there are no orcs achieving anything :icon_wink: Just look at fetta getting demolished after 5min of game in all inhouses...
-
I would argue that human and elf are better "designed" for winning FML games, human especially. I think they are the most well-rounded races at every point of FFA (early game, late game etc) and have great units. Orc is far behind in terms of macro early game, and often leads them to be broke most of the game especially if they are rushed. And honestly, any ud/hu/elf would be stupid not to rush a close spawn orc or they give up that advantage. Undead is the weakest once everyone has 5/5/5+, and I am still surprised undead players win in FML so often, with the exception of maga of course <3
-
missing out is towers
as orc you need to tower more.
however lumber sucks especially in 4ways which now have earlier 3-1 teaming to make later solos more even.
I remember lel and even plush and nline had more towers everywhere.
makes 80 food orc very strong
imo alch tc sh should be used more. RLY strong combo with orc that helps it beat its weakenss of heavy air and air
-
The sum of orc problems starts with early game macro IMO. Basically, 3 things can happen:
1) Get 80 rushed and die
2) Get 80 rushed, survive, but be screwed in gold. Even if you can peace, someone else will probably hit you since no one wants to let an orc hoard/mass expos
3) No one rushes you, so you have option to do whatever you need to (bank 50, go 80 etc)
I would argue that most players probably don't scout well enough or build appropriate armies. It's true that you cant get your 'perfect' 80 food army ready before an undead or human can hit you with 80, but you can mass bats or wyv/spirit walker to enough efficiency to be able to resist getting rushed out
-
We just saw Tyrant wreck geass in game 1, orc in the right hands can pwn anyone at any given time.
-
There's two major parts.
The first part is one other people have touched on: Every other race has a huge incentive to kill Orcs early. Although HU players can potentially fight Orc players straight-up in the late game, it's very, very micro intensive to pull off whereas timely rushes are not. NE is so susceptible to bats. UD practically auto-loses the late game to the extent that it feels incredibly redundant to mention it again.
The second is many orc build orders are really limited at mitigating rushes. From what I've been able to watch periodically since I stopped playing, most orc players tend to not prioritize what's most helpful against rushes, like boots on a BM, getting 1 walker out early for spirit-link, and especially fortified towers. The first two buttons that need to get pushed the second after T3 completes should be the hotkey for one's war-mill and D for reinforced defenses - every game. That was one of my rules and I didn't even play when there was more than 2 players that would regularly rush orcs in a given season.
-
orc is the weakest race in the protection, suck towers, suck hp/armor buildings. what is range towers can do vs 100limit, or mass tnaks or 2 players? its nothing..
Look how geas defense vs 2 players, big armor buildings, good towers, hard to break..Hum best race in defense
some vs ne, base with moonwels and protectors - hard break
So having the weakest protection what orc must do vs teaming !?
-
We just saw Tyrant wreck geass in game 1, orc in the right hands can pwn anyone at any given time.
geass did poorly first game he was at 1k when the war with tyrant started and did lose mk am before the first fight. this had nothing to do with tyrant beeing orc and you know it cumulo. screaming orc imbalance when a 80 food army beats 3 heroes only is complete bs (i hope you read this too laxu) iam also not saying that we could see how weak orc is in second game since tyrant played awful especially in army composition. this discussion simply is ment to analyze why there are no good orc players left and the major points were already mentioned. the major problem is that a 3way rarely includes 3 skilled players lately. its usually 2 bad ones you face who will team you to death cuz they suck and know they cant beat you otherwise. or 1 good and 1 bad player when the good player will use the bad player to kill you and after that kill him. the only way to stop the bad player from beeing a puppet would be losing to him on purpose wich is not the style of an orc player! we have honor and dignity and we wanna fight and win by ourselfes. not like these ugly undeads and elfs always teaming hiding armies mass chatting and killing buildings.
it doesnt mather if we are succesfull or not in fml
WE ARE THE MASTER RACE
let these scrubs cry about "imbalance" and keep on teaming!
deep inside they know they suck and are an embarrasment for their own shitty elf and undead races.
If it takes 2 other races to bring us down so be it.
THIS IS ORC!
TONIGHT WE DINE IN HELL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Guys orcs ever won FML ?
-
yeah in ancient times!
-
F-l-y randomed Orc and sk2flash played orc in finals (normally hes ud)
-
Lol at orc being the suckiest race in protection. Even bigger lol at Shave's attempts to make orc appear weak and its teaming unjustified. :D
-
Yeah, orc base is ridiculous with proper tower placement. Not to mention if the orc has an 100 army hanging out there as well... Obviously hu can take down an orc base easily, but undead definitely has the weakest base and elf base is only hard to break with an elf army defending it. Orc with enough towers can easily pump out mass bats or whatever in the time an opponent shows up, esp if undead.
Also, I think orc is the second best race in terms of dealing with teaming (obviously hu is best). Mobile army, good scouting, can take on consecutive fights being able to delay fighting second opponent with towers while bats reproduce. Watch some old replays, players like Ludix or LW controlled teaming well basically controlling the map (which you can actually do if you scout) and just constantly pressuring with 100 food armies on opponents. Most players these days just cry about teaming and roll over.
-
maga please this is a topic from orc players for orc players.
Keep your blasphemy for "why 80 food undeads cant beat a 3hero guy without losing everything" topic
-
the best race to avoid teaming is undead! why? have you ever seen an undead or elf getting teamed to death? me neither! You only get teamed to death if you are orc and sometimes if you are human. human have mass tp to handle teaming orcs dont. so hardest race to survive teaming is obv orc.
-
Problem for orc is that their units are relatively weak. They miss great units like tanks, mass tp or level 3 masonry to deal with teaming effectively. It's hard for orcs to survive teaming - especially if they get teamed by two air armies. Plus everyone wants an orc out before hero arena because their heroes are insane.
I believe the solution to this problem is to play smart instead of "just strong" :p
-
My guess would be along the the lines of what others have said here - that orc is not very good against teaming unless they are the ones being proactive on the map like Ludix did. An orc winning a fight means they lost 20% of their units anyways (bats) so they can't fight back-to-back fights. Another thing is the setup required of spirit link/bloodlust and possibly placing stasis traps. I would say orc requires the most set-up for fights, making it difficult versus multiple opponents frequently attacking.
Then, also already mentioned, orc has the slowest economic buildup at the start on most maps with the common build orders chosen (bm, fast tech, no grunts).
One other thing is vision - orc can get great vision out of one witch doctor, and if they habe control of the map its great. But if you are shut into base it's near impossible to get that good vision whereas other races have shades that can sneak out, elf has owls, and human has maphack.
-
Guys you tried play fml without chat ? i rly want to see how you scouting and show pure skilling without chat.
-
Yes we have tried it. Sometimes it is enjoyable and fun to see skilled players without chat.. Other times it creates dull games where somebody dominates everything while 2 other players are locked in a suicide because they can't coordinate
-
We need Ostone back, and ofc ENA :)
-
after today's game, I'm suiciding anyone who gets orc :icon_lol:
-
:icon_biggrin:
-
it's actually kinda funny how two of the top hum players couldnt defeat two non orc players with orc -_-.
-
Funny thing actually, I don't rush or suicide orc players... However since they are all convince that I will attack them, they tend to attack me first, resulting in us fighting to the death... which then confirms their misconception that I always attack orcs.
I JUST WANT TO HOARD UNTIL THE MAP IS DRAINED! DON'T HIT ME AND I WON'T HIT YOU!
-
@Renaud, Manip...
-
lol renaud <3. Btw, are u giving 50 coins to anyone who lost all coins so that they could keep on betting?
-
yes, as soon as you lose all your coins you go back to 50
-
I never get over 50 XD always failing with 50 coins all-in
-
lol Renaud, at least make it back to 5 coins, that way people have some hope, but rewarding with 50% of initial coins is way too much imo.
-
btw renaud, lol@everyone who lost all their coins suddenly betting 50 coins on Under.Sta :icon_mrgreen: