I think Eshan and Laxu are conservative when it comes to changing rules and the format of FML. The way it is now an average FML game takes almost three hours. It is often boring to watch it through - even at 8x speed. If we want to attract more people to FFA and make FFA casts more enjoyable, we have to think in terms of action and implement some rules to avoid long boring 3 ways. 3 ways are rarely beautiful - most of the time three players sit in their main and discuss who to team next for an hour before something happens.
Another thing: show Dovekie some respect. He is a tough opponent and a skilled player. In my opinion his skills in combat surpases both of you (Eshan and laxu). He also has a point about the coordinated teaming that less skilled players benefit from. I can't even believe you are arguing about this. Seksi already made clear points about this. He also said medium skilled players have a better shot of winning fml games. I consider seksi to be one of the toughest players I ever faced in all aspects but he never won FML.
The ideal form of competitive FFA is imo like Seksi suggested:
- A larger number of skilled players that play in a tournament or ladder on anonymous accounts (the dream). However, this is just an ideal. We don't have a large FFA player base to make a strong competitive anonymous ladder. FML is the stronghold of competitive FFA and has been for a long time. That does not mean ladder cannot be fun/challenging.
I think it would be cool to experiment with the timer again because FFA games take way to long with relatively little action. This is my personal view of things because I think it would be great for attracting viewers/players to FFA as well as making FML games more action packed and fun to play for the players. I am not against base race scenarios and games up to 2 hours, but I do have a problem with sitting and waiting in one’s base for 2½ hours -4 hours. With the current format sitting and waiting is rational because sometimes sitting in your main is the best choice in a 3-way. At the same time, it would be good to make a format where FFA games develop at its own pace with room for strategic decision making and hoarding, which are important strategic elements in FFA that has to be preserved.
Too long games could perhaps be solved by making more 6-ways and 8-ways if one can somehow come up with a solution to the scheduling problem. I think all initiatives that make FFA more action packed and "unforgiving" if one plays passively and sits in main for a long time without hoarding or mining, are welcome. FFA is after all not primarily about fighting skills and micro/macro, it is about playing smart to win and seizing opportunities. Why is that? Because skilled players will always make sure their chances of winning are good, which means more coordinated teaming and balancing in case one player is about to dominate.
I'm on holiday from 8-16 June and after that i'll be busy until the 23th June... I hope we can schedule the final sometime at the end of the month if its possible.
Best advice is to experiment with builds and pay attention to the strenghts and weaknesses.
From my basic rdm race experience I can tell you the basics at least:
Fiend build:
The standard go-to build for undeads where you make at least 3 fiends and start creeping all over the map with undead heroes.
Advantages:
1. If you play ladder (especially) it is the safest build because you can defend almost all sorts of aggression in the early game. 2. It is easy to control fiends and creep all over the map with rods, and it is often faster than gargs (in the first 5-6 minutes I would say).
Disadvantages
1. The biggest disadvantage with the fiend build is that you gain levels fast on the DK, but not on the Lich / DL. This means that once your lich spawns your DK will be lvl 4 and you might have a level 1 lich and level 1 dreadlord if your creeping routes go bad.
2. Eventually you have to switch to gargs / destroyers or garg / wyrm because it is better in the later stages of the game. Why? Because it can handle different most army compositions from different races whereas fiends will get wrecked by chippo, orc ground units or even mass breakers / tanks.
Garg build:
starts with a greedy opening where undeads will attempt to take an expansion while teching up asap with a number of ghouls.
Advantages
The levels on your lich and dreadlord follows your DK more closely than a fiend build, which is absolutely crucial if you engage an elf for example with chippo, where u need nova and swarm at lvl 2 at least to fight properly.
Disadvantages
You are vulnerable at start, and you may get significantly behind if some orc goes for mass bats against your gargs. It is also weak against tanks and breakers if one fails at making the right preparations and decisions. Usually undeads want to be aggressive and use the mobility of gargs compared to tanks, but in the end it will cost them their expansions.
Anyway... DV and other undead players can give you more pros and cons. Some favor fiend play other prefer gargs. You have to experiment on different maps and in different games to really understand which is better as it is often situational.
1. FML games are often too long and boring to watch 2. FML games don't reward early aggression (and in many cases) winning your 1on1 convincingly.
Why?
1. Early aggression means you will put yourself behind. Yes, you might win your solo against player 2, but player 3 and player 4 will often times creep, expand and wait until you finish your solo. In this case you will be far behind, and not able to defend an attack from one of those players that will have a distinct macro advantage/hero advantage over you.
2. Winning your 1on1 convincingly will often lead to teaming if the other players have good FFA sense. Let us say you are fighting player 2 and you are having a significant lead. You are perhaps the strongest player on paper and the other players will indeed have an interest in balancing the game in their favor. In this case it will always be in player 3's and player 4's interest to peace and scout before you finish off player 2 because that allows them to control the pace of the game.
To prevent these situations from happening FML players find it advantageous to go for the long game where they can control the pace of the game. Simply because it allows for the best chances to win. Yet the longer games does not solve problems of teaming. If you are great in fights, and thus have an advantage, you will always find yourself being teamed more so than others. It does not mean that you have lesser chances to win the game, but often times you have the same chances as players with mediocre fighting skills or worse. In reality fighting skills does not matter so much compared to FFA sense and manipulation in FML - if you can somehow find a way to get an advantage that the other players are unaware about, it will in many cases lead to a victory.
The criticique adressed here points to what I have been saying for a long time: FML games are dull to watch and irritating to play for strong micro players and aggressive players (such as solo players) that are not rewarded for exceptional fighting skills. Some may say this is whine and refusing to adapt. Others will agree that better players should have a greater chance of winning - this is all up to taste. I prefer fighting and action while some prefer these long games where one can play awful in fights and still win due to the format.
My point of view is that this critique has merit to it, but the main reason why we see long dull games is not because of the players. It is the format of 4-player games that create stale games where manipulation and passiveness (sitting in main for long periods of time) is rewarded compared to taking an early advantage. The obvious explanation is that while it is most of the time advantageous to be aggressive in a 6-way or 8-way after you have taken your expansion (depending on the map of course), it usually never (or indeed never) is in 4-ways. So imo the fault is not the players, but the 4-way format, which favor some players with certain skills and certain playstyles if you play for win.
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