FFA Masters League
League => League Discussion => Topic started by: FML|WorpeX on December 22, 2011, 03:12:33 pm
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A long time discussion between FFA players is the Private Messaging system in wc3. Should it be allowed or disallowed? Many players argue that it is part of FFA but others say that it encourages teaming and cheating. So far, FML has been part of the Pro-PM club but in light of recent games, this could change.
This thread is made primarily for discussion purposes. It in no way will directly affect league rulings, however, it can influence them.
Discuss and vote! Should FML keep PM legal or ban it?
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Three-ways encourage teaming too. As for cheating there's only been one suspected game and that's only because Eshan probably forgot to take his nerd rage meds.
I vote to keep it of course. Everyone can use, it's not like only a subset of players are allowed to benefit from it.
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I didnt mind before but now i say "ban it"
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I didnt mind before but now i say "ban it"
or at least lets see what banning it does
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T_T a part of me died when i did that post
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Lone wins again.
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voted for banning
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Ban it.
It does add an extra dimension to FFA, but not a beneficial one. All chat manipping forces a player to weight two (or three) players going back and forth making their cases. PM chat at its best allows one player to circumvent another player's manip abilities and just turn it into a game of foolishness (honestly anyone who falls for or uses PM is generally a lower skilled player anyway. Thers a reason everyone who has won this league doesnt rely on the compliance of others to win.)
Thats the best case scenario. Worst case scenario is the atrocious games that have been generated by PMing this season. It will eliminate bad drama (good drama is the fuel of FFA, this crap just makes babies cry.) It will limit preteaming/all game teaming. And it will focus play back on skill, strategy, diplomacy and less on ridiculous unseen agreements. Its Market Square, not Yalta. Deciding the order of finish in PMs is !#@%ed up on every level.
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Kruppe's position is very clear.
Ban it.
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im out of the league but i voted ban as well
public chat gives the player whos going to get teamed a chance to prepare himself and defend himself verbally and on the battlefield~
ps. admins im still available if you need subs -_-
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Btw I hope you can see who voted for what since some people "pro-pm" have multiple accounts in the site. I voted for banning it
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Btw I hope you can see who voted for what since some people "pro-pm" have multiple accounts in the site. I voted for banning it
Not certain, but I'm sure Worpex has some super power that will enable him to do so.
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i love democracy
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Btw I hope you can see who voted for what since some people "pro-pm" have multiple accounts in the site. I voted for banning it
Not certain, but I'm sure Worpex has some super power that will enable him to do so.
I totally feel like a super hero now! I have no idea if I can or not though... i'll have to look into that. haha
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With Pming banned there will be less trouble, so i vote for banning pm aswell, because it got abused way too much lateley.
I hope we wonīt have too much suicides in games. With the growth of 'hate' this season between some players, it wonīt get easier to get games which ainīt fueled with insulting heated chat, resulting in players caring less about winning than just making others lose. so i just can hope people will calm down a bit throughout the holidays.
Also with this clan fury/lone thing, old rivalries or unfinished business issues i am not happy. I ask for everyone resisting against such things and not going to fuel those vicous circles again and again.
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do you guys realize that banning pm completely is not really possible?
you can still pm on garena, msn, icq or an other medium...
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@ Mmk: True, but then people are clearly going against the rules and if found out a punishment can be enforced.
As for the issue I said ban it. I think the manipulation factor can still be used while talking to everyone, and it might even make the games have a new element with players trying to sway each other.
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Well it's also impossible to ban hacking (vent hack for example, and i'm sure many sophisticated hack works on ggc). However, most player see a rule and say "fine, ill follow it" of course there will be a minority that might think "I must break the rule to prove it is breakable!!"
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I can see guys like Q or eshan using pm just to say "hello, how are you today" after it is banished
then they get punished for using pv chat
they will say it is stupid cause it wasnt game related
they will launch a survey on how the punishment is fair or nor
Ugh will insult me for some reason
I am the league far seer.
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I can see guys like Q or eshan using pm just to say "hello, how are you today" after it is banished
then they get punished for using pv chat
they will say it is stupid cause it wasnt game related
they will launch a survey on how the punishment is fair or nor
Ugh will insult me for some reason
I am the league far seer.
I didnt donate fitty bucks to give these awesome people donating their time to run a league a headache. So get your acts together.
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I can see guys like Q or eshan using pm just to say "hello, how are you today" after it is banished
then they get punished for using pv chat
they will say it is stupid cause it wasnt game related
they will launch a survey on how the punishment is fair or nor
Ugh will insult me for some reason
I am the league far seer.
What rules have I broken? Judging by the "I love Q-veta" thread there's only 2 people currently that think I'm venom to this league so it seems I'm not such a huge troublemaker after all. That is until duck posts, then they'll be 3. Whatever Worpex decides with PM I'll respect that. It's his league. Don't lump me together with Eshan, it's insulting.
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Voted for banning PM chat.
We don't need PM, because it makes many games dirty and there won't be a "grey zone" as ugri called it. Even if somebody would think to be smart and use other chat possibilitys like garena chat it will slow him down by tabbing from the game. And if everybody will know it you can show it to the other players to have a self-regulating league so the guy gets kicked.
Things like teaming the strongest are part of the game and necessary to ensure game dynamics. If there wont be pm's allowed you can react better if you are close to beeing double-teamed like attacking one guy before he can make units when you read what they plan. In my eyes we should do that for sure. I don't see any cons. This will elimininate mass hoarding by some guys who pretend to be weak with low heros but banking 30 k gold. It will make shorter games i think.
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First off, I want it to go on record that I voted for not banning PM. While I don't use it myself, I feel that since the functionality is part of the game, it should be allowed. FFA is about winning using any method possible, whether that means godlike play, teaming or backstabbing is up to the players. Also I feel that the difficulty of regulating it is a problem, but Renaud has described a method to at least make it possible (in admin forums anyway).
Next:
I can see guys like Q or eshan using pm just to say "hello, how are you today" after it is banished
then they get punished for using pv chat
they will say it is stupid cause it wasnt game related
they will launch a survey on how the punishment is fair or nor
Ugh will insult me for some reason
I am the league far seer.
It is pretty easy to just add a claus into the rule saying, "Private Chat is disallowed for discussion of in-game actions or reactions." or something to that extent. That way people can talk to each other about life without getting banned for it and annoying the other players.
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It is pretty easy to just add a claus into the rule saying, "Private Chat is disallowed for discussion of in-game actions or reactions." or something to that extent. That way people can talk to each other about life without getting banned for it and annoying the other players.
Or it could just be said "ANY PM in-game is not allowed" to remove any possibility of ambiguity. If people want to talk about their daily lives to others in private, perhaps it's best to wait until after a league game has finished.
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@Worpex: Banning PM will make admins life easier since we have this stupid discussion going on so it might be worth a try. In addition i think it doesn't limit game dynamics in any case since you can still use public chat. There will be no dumb excuses like "if i would have know this and that i would have...". Im for playing with pants down for everybody (wow that sounds a little gay :icon_mrgreen:). And if there is a doubt about if somebody used PM the players are obliged to upload the replay if an admin is asking for it. If he doesn't he will get a punishment.
You could make it rule 6.20c. :icon_wink:
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actually banning pm won't end the discussion, it will just switch side. Instead of ppl whining to get it banned, ppl will be whining to get it allowed.
I honestly have nothing against PM, but it will probably remove a lot of "this looks like preteaming" talk
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Even though PM is a function built into the game that everyone has equal access to, I still believe it makes the game worse (as an interesting point, preteaming is also a function of the game that everyone has equal access to). I think PM is bad for the following reasons:
(1)PMing can facilitate preteaming arrangements by allowing those players to privately reconfirm their plans during the game.
(2)PMing makes games boring to watch because the players are seemingly acting arbitrarily with no discussion.
(3)PMing is frustrating to play again because : (a) When you lose to PMing opponents it's very hard to learn from those losses, as you have no access to information on when and how much they PMed and what they said in PM, even after the game ends. b) it feels as if there was nothing you could have done to prevent it (more on this in the next point).
(4)Since you don't know who and when opponents are PMing, one of the most effective counter measures to PM is to use PM yourself, and use it earlier than opponents might use it. This means that in a game where everyone is playing optimally it is likely there will be mass PM, which just goes to amplify the other cons listed here.
Those are my 2 cents.
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Admins have to decide in a grey zone if there was preteam all game. If there is only public chat used the obs people will be able to understands the game dynamics and of course the players playing. No grey zone, no missunderstandings, pants down and equal chances for everybody. If somebody will try to piece with a players the other two guys will know it and will be able to play in regard of this fact :icon_wink:. I would appreciate to ban PM chat, because it will light up so many things. I hope admins really think about it :icon_smile:.
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Even though PM is a function built into the game that everyone has equal access to, I still believe it makes the game worse (as an interesting point, preteaming is also a function of the game that everyone has equal access to).
That's a pretty terrible argument. Everyone can maphack and everyone can make units and heroes, I don't see how those are anything alike just like PMing and preteaming. If it was real preteaming they wouldn't even need to chat, they would already decide what to do before the game.
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Even though PM is a function built into the game that everyone has equal access to, I still believe it makes the game worse (as an interesting point, preteaming is also a function of the game that everyone has equal access to).
That's a pretty terrible argument. Everyone can maphack and everyone can make units and heroes, I don't see how those are anything alike just like PMing and preteaming. If it was real preteaming they wouldn't even need to chat, they would already decide what to do before the game.
if you are addressing the part of my post that you quoted-- I was making the argument that just because PM is built into the game doesn't make it a good thing. I used preteaming as an example of something that is inherently part of the game that is definitely a bad thing.
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Ban PM. Pretty much every FFA player with any skill agrees with this too. You can still team the strongest, even team whoever you want thorugh ALL chat. As longas you coordinate through ALL chat it is an even playing field. The players who are better at manip will still have an advantage through all chat. You can hear what everyone says and they can hear you. Fair. You can manipulate fairly based on this, or succumb to other's outchatting you. Regardless, every level of chat and teaming and manipulation is done where all players can view it and have a chance to respond.
Fair.
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Actually pm have most likely been built exclusively for ffa (in what other game type could it be useful?) I pretty much have always defended pm, but at this point I think removing it would help reduce some of drama
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Even though PM is a function built into the game that everyone has equal access to, I still believe it makes the game worse (as an interesting point, preteaming is also a function of the game that everyone has equal access to). I think PM is bad for the following reasons:
(1)PMing can facilitate preteaming arrangements by allowing those players to privately reconfirm their plans during the game.
(2)PMing makes games boring to watch because the players are seemingly acting arbitrarily with no discussion.
(3)PMing is frustrating to play again because : (a) When you lose to PMing opponents it's very hard to learn from those losses, as you have no access to information on when and how much they PMed and what they said in PM, even after the game ends. b) it feels as if there was nothing you could have done to prevent it (more on this in the next point).
(4)Since you don't know who and when opponents are PMing, one of the most effective counter measures to PM is to use PM yourself, and use it earlier than opponents might use it. This means that in a game where everyone is playing optimally it is likely there will be mass PM, which just goes to amplify the other cons listed here.
Those are my 2 cents.
(1) there has never been any cases of preteam in the league, and if there was ever an actual preteaming case, I'm sure they would be using vent or skype
(2) 95% of FFA's are boring to watch, thats why there is OBS chat and 8x replays. Also watchability should never be a factor
(3) Very opinionated. You can out chat someone in /all when they are PMing
(4) Very opinionated. I find the best counter to two people PMing is to kill one of them.
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It really, imo, just doesn't make any sense to have an all out war between 4 people and not allow the private chat between two players. Thats not FFA imo.
I would say that the majority of players don't PM, which is why the vote is winning to remove it. They want to take away that advantage from the players who do, for their sake, not the leagues.
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Private chat ruins much in fml games, because every player is above the nub level. So if two players pm in a 3 way and decide to eliminate you, they will be able to do it in 80% of the games. If they will have to use public chat the player who gets teamed has a better chance to compete like rushing one guy before they can group in front of his base. if you make this rule we will prevent a lot of idiotic discussions and trouble after the game.
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only noobs PMing in fml game without any balls... like eshan :O
i didnt read the rest of the threads/topics -_-
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Yeah, the more i'm thinking about it, the more i want pm to stay...
Well, we could always try and see what removing it does for 1 round?
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Thats a great idea renaud. We could try it for one round and see if its suitable for everyday use. But in the end admins have to decide if they want it or not. I think this is more a suggestion then a must for the league.
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i never use pm, but really dont wanna to ban it...
Ps dunno why..
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i never use pm, but really dont wanna to ban it...
Ps dunno why..
Very insightful :icon_lol:
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Don't wanna ban it, but also don't want other players to use private chat against yourself.
Sounds to me like: "The earth is flat and at the end there is a huge waterfall"
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Thanks for all the responses guys! A lot of great points were made in this thread and thanks to everyone for keeping it civil! The results of this were about what I expected - the community is mostly divided on the issue. Still, a lot of people seem to want to ban private chat so we will likely end up doing Renauds suggestion of trying it for a round to see what happens.
Thanks again guys!
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I dont really care at all.
Voted no-ban because its fun to get PM teamed 2v1 and lose and rage hard.
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I dont really care at all.
Voted no-ban because its fun to get PM teamed 2v1 and lose and rage hard.
I can't tell if you're serious or not.
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serious obs. Everyone knows I dont make jokes.
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I think it used to be 16-12, and now its 17-12 so i'm, guessing hes sarcastic and he voted to ban it
However, you could always check the ids contained in the poll db, and check who voted what
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But thats unethical!
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lol, he voted no. Crazy guy.
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Forget about me, Im just here to confuse you.
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PM chat and regular chat are options for everyone. Also though, I think people overlook the fact that silence and appearances (e.g. base layouts, hero levels/choices, army size/composition) can be just as manipulative and deceptive as blocks of text in reg or PM chat. A lot of the "problem" with chat and preteaming is that it may not, for some, be as entertaining to watch as the strong fighters in the community going on rampages. But for that matter is it not just as boring to watch weak fighters attempt to go on rampages when their true ability is in orchestrating their victories by other means? I for one found Eshan's PM chat in his game with SS and Walking intriguing, because it was effective (and for the record, I'm a big fan of players who rely primarily on their fighting ability to win games). Like most lurkers at ffareplays (or are we so few?), I just like to watch a well-played game, no matter what a player's style is.
I know the great worry is that games will degenerate into vendettas, feuds and 2 vs. 2's , but I think that the best thing that could happen to organized FFA as we know it is to remove the rules against preteaming. Really the only rules should be against cheating and ghosting, and the second one seems easily preventable - I recall watching many solo replays where the hosts used a program that allowed for a delay between what observers were seeing and what was happening in real-time. Anyway, back to preteaming. It should be allowed to run its course in the league. Eventually players will recognize that not all of the consequences of teaming and chat will be to their benefit, in any given game or season (I think it's pretty clear that plenty of FFAers have long memories).
No one would seriously consider a ban on certain hero combos, items, or any mix of these, let alone the curbing of anything that would prevent the community's best fighters from shining in battle. Instead the good fighters have gained reputations that precede them in every game they enter - their abilities are factored into every serious player's game plan. I see no reason to prevent manippers and teamers from freely establishing their own reputations, ones which will become as notorious as those of the fighters, by allowing teaming and chatting of any kind to go unchecked. Let those players who rely on manip and teaming carry their own double-edged swords as the fighters have been allowed to, especially if the alternative is this gray area, open to interpretation, which will do nothing but create additional drama and disputes.
Sorry for the bump and the large reply, but this weekend is the first chance I've had to sit and think about the recent controversies that were M25 and M27. And I think getting rid of any kind of chat or teaming would move FFA in the wrong direction. And then I'd only have TV to watch =/
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(i'm not saying i'm in favor of this, but it is interesting)
Allowing preteaming *would* be cool in some case (especially if we can see all the pregame manip between the 4 player pming each other on the forum). Also, most player would be unable to trust each other, since unlike bnet preteaming, both player wants to win. I suppose that most player would probably create a pregame alliance, and not follow it (probably because they are paranoid that the other won't follow it) The problem, is when you have actual strong trust between players (although that is already a problem, even if there is no preteaming, there are conflicts of interest)
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Yes Renaud that is true - without trying to provoke an argument I'm just going to use Walking and Rabbit as an example, not because I am accusing them of impartiality but because they're a convenient example since they're brothers. But the thing is, they're only going to be in the same game a maximum of two times per regular season (that is just a guess, based on the size of the player pool and the # of games), and everyone can see their preteam coming. But Walking and Rabbit (again, just using them as a convenient example) still require good spawns and a pair of weak opponents to ensure consistent victories during their games together. And then they have 4-5 other games where they're without each other to rely on, probably matched up against people who are unappreciative of their methods of ensuring themselves 1st and 2nd place points - it would arguably then be wise for other players (especially ones they've previously teamed) to make sure that they don't get 1st and 2nd place points in other games - call it an expansion of strategic play that transcends any individual game. Because at the end of the day each player is playing for an accumulation of points.
I really think that allowing everything short of cheating and ghosting (just another form of cheating) would put teaming and chat in their proper perspective and make tier 1 and tier 2 rushes sensible in FFA - would it not become worth it for Dase to rush out Ebo, solo style, when they're close-spawned? It would boost the value of a player's fighting ability and devalue teaming ability - what good is teaming if you're rushed out early? The other players in the game will still benefit more from ignoring it rather than from coming to the rescue - after all there is one less teamer in the game, and more time to creep and expand.
Oh and one more thing. If it's sensible to look beyond the current game you're in and play to the overall accumulation of points, I think it makes feeding a lot more sensible too. I haven't explicitly said it (though it's implied by allowing anything short of cheating), but I think feeding should be a legitimate means of bargaining, as suicide is.
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Kruppe wants every non-playing poster to be removed from the poll.
Or should Kruppe get all of his friends to vote for ban?
This is too poor for Kruppe's weary eyes.
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Keep in mind, Kruppe:
1.) Worpex has the ability to see which users voted for which options
2.) The final decision by the admins do not rest solely on this poll.
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Dear Son of Darkness,
Kruppe will by all means accept the decision Worpex willll make, but I would like to see this vote cleansed of the forum users that do not play FML.
I want a poll of players, not of forum members that registered 1 day ago.
Kruppe willl bow his head, but Kruppe wants to know truth of FFA community' s opinion.
Period.
Furthermore Kruppe wants a stop to PM teaming Admin with an very good hiding maphacker in this league.
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Last time I checked, all the votes were legitimate. That could have changed, but I'm too lazy to check and as Darkness said, the vote doesn't matter
This thread is made primarily for discussion purposes. It in no way will directly affect league rulings, however, it can influence them.
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Furthermore Kruppe wants a stop to PM teaming Admin with an very good hiding maphacker in this league.
I couldn't fully understand that sentence, but if you are claiming that someone is maphacking in this league, you'll need to contact Worpex via PM with your proof.
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I know it sounds counter-intuitive that the solution to "too much teaming" in FML is to permit PM and preteaming to go unchecked, but look at my argument rather than my post count to determine whether or not my vote in the poll is worthwhile.
The best fighters are perceived to be much more dangerous than the best teamers, for two related reasons: teamers are not permitted to use all of the weapons at their disposal - preteaming, feeding, manipping and, perhaps in the near future, PM chat. Fighters on the other hand are not impeded in any way: any combination of heroes and units is permitted. Fighters cannot hide or lower the levels of their heroes. Fighters can use whatever style of fighting best suits them, and some of them do it so well that they either have nicknames related to how regularly and intensely they're teamed for it (Maga's curse) or they're required to off-race to be perceived as less of a threat (Dase). It is easy to assume the worst about fighters and how much trouble they're going to be for you when they're fully able to exercise they're capabilities. Not so with teamers. The strength of the teaming style of play in FML, and by extension of teamers themselves, is diluted by the limitations imposed on teaming and feeding - the fighters as a result look much more dangerous than the teamers do, and in fact are much more dangerous, since their style of play is not limited by the rules, while the teamer's style is.
All I'm suggesting is that teamers be allowed to achieve their potential in the game-type. My argument is that when their true strength has been seen, the fighters will look a lot less dangerous, and the way FFAs in FML are played out will be much more diverse than the whittling down of 3 players who must continually stab each other in the back for 2 hours, all because teamers are not currently dangerous enough to make rushing them out a viable or wise option in FFA.
Imagine going into a game with a mix of teamers and fighters, and being forced to assume the worst of all of them in terms of their potential - preteaming, Orc tri-hero, and the threats of some whiner in the late game that he will feed items and heroes to another player if you attack him one more time (which is really just the weak fighter's version of a suicide against you) - if you knew going into the game that each given player was capable of each of those things, would it not change the way you and every other player devised your strategy in each game? And would it not force you to re-evaluate the danger each player in the game poses to your chances of winning at any given stage in the game? I really don't see being forced to undergo another learning curve as such a terrible thing, especially when it has the potential to shake up the way FFA in FML is currently played. I really enjoy watching the games, but I think there is a lot of untapped potential as it stands.
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Last time I checked, all the votes were legitimate. That could have changed, but I'm too lazy to check and as Darkness said, the vote doesn't matter
This thread is made primarily for discussion purposes. It in no way will directly affect league rulings, however, it can influence them.
Dear Worpex,
of course you are right. Kruppe's intention was to see the clear picture about the opinions of the players. That's all.
Dear Son Of Darkness,
if Kruppe had proof he would have done this. There are players hiding too good, but one can see it in the way they build their games. That was the reason for my sentence - a maphacker with PM is nearly unstoppable for no-one is able to know where his information is from when he uses it in private chat. Even worse if an honorable player - Admin for example - falls for this.
Dear Reflekkt,
this thread is about private messaging. Nobody talks about teaming or to forbid it.
Kruppe
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Dear Kruppe,
The argument is relevant since it implicitly argues for the continued use of PM in the league. Banning PM will just further make teamers appear weaker and fighters appear stronger, for the reasons I have already given.
Best,
ReFlekKt
As an aside: In theory banning PM is an advantage for fighters since they will no longer be required to scout coordinated attacks, which ironically amounts to something like a legal maphack for fighters when it is needed the most (when two or more players are coordinating to hit him at the same time). Again, though, I've already explained why I think banning PM will end up having the opposite effect for which it is intended.
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Ban eet. The games will be longer due to everyone counter manipping in all-chat, but that's the price to pay. As people get smarter about who to team against, it should balance out, and games should be shorter/more dynamic again.
Right now, 90% participants in this league suck ass at scouting, which is why they are so bad at teaming correctly. Hopefully without priv chat there will be more insentive to learn to effing scout.
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^Voted like a true teamer.
In all seriousness though it may be as you say - that people just need to learn to scout and get smarter about who to team out, and that it's only a matter of time before that happens - and I hope you're right, because it is a lot more interesting to see players take decisive action early on when the iron is still hot.
Case in point was Q-veta's game with y.z. (on Deadlock I think), where Q-veta rushed him out quickly, precisely because of the danger y.z. would have posed later in the game. I (and I'm sure other people are as well) am looking forward to seeing more games like that, especially where the roles are reversed and a player like, say, Duck will have no qualms or reservations about rushing out someone like Q-veta for the same reason (or, as happened to you vs Starshaped on Gold Rush, force him to relocate), and other players in the game won't feel like Duck must now be teamed for the rest of the game, as Q-veta wasn't vs y.z. - after all, he had just rushed out a dangerous player.
Maybe people do just need to smarten up and study FFA. I know there's a good chance I'm wrong on all this since I'm not primarily an FFA player. But I am wondering what fighters think of the idea.
EDIT: and when I say "fighters" I'm referring to players such as Dase, Maga, Duck and Darkness, and anyone else who generally has no problem cleaning up in fights. I know my fighter/teamer terminology is reductive since most players are hybrids, but it's just for argument's sake, as I'm sure everyone understands already.
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Problem is, FFA isn't competitive enough for people to smarten up.
Moronic strats work precisely because people aren't good enough at FFA. Many powerful "fighter" combos/strats work only because they rely on either everyone doing a "fighter" strat, or everyone not giving a shit and not teaming at the right time.
I don't think it's going to change. There are many 50 total active FFAers, and without competition there is no need to improve :/
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Some annoying shit removed.
Sorry again.
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What was what? O_o
If Kruppe was referring to this topic, it was to gather information about the player's opinion. And we ended up with the status quo
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I am fairly disappointed of Kruppe's last post. It was spiteful, rude and irrelevant to the discussion, and while I haven't participated in it (mainly due to lack of time, not interest) I feel like Reflekkt, as the name perhaps is telling us, is trying to contribute differentiated and reflected points in a very polite manner, without claiming to be right (!). If you fail at understanding and respecting that, as do 99% of the public in general (hint: this is probably why populism works), I can not help you.
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Kruppe apologizes for this post.
It was made in anger and Kruppe is very sorry.
DasElend, you are completely right.
To stop this going further, Kruppe asks to be allowed to delete the post.
Sorry at Reflekkt,
Kruppe
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It's fine Kruppe, I have very little personal experience of FFA, while you all have plenty of games and ability to your credit. I understand if it's hard to take my thoughts seriously as a result, and I appreciate that you all have taken the time to reply. I appreciate the apology, and thanks Daselend for making those points in your post :) And while I'm at it thanks to rygo and Renaud for their responses as well. Just to be clear I ultimately defer to you guys' judgement on this topic.
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Thank you for accepting my apology, I (Kruppe too) appreciate it a lot.
The post was referring to the game played yesterday and I was simply angry about the way it went. I realize now I put the blame on you but thinking further it was a matter of constellation and Starshaped's play style.
The post did not relate to your analysis in this thread, there are many good thoughts in your writing and I do not hold the holy grail of FFA in my hands.
Neither it is my nature being that misbehaving.
Best wishes and see you in Garena,
Kruppe