FFA Masters League
General => Strategy => Topic started by: Nooblex on December 19, 2011, 10:11:09 pm
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:FMLN: :ne: :ud: :orc: :hu: :ra:
Okay, so I don't want to create a new thread for this however I think Nooblex deserves to be credited a lot more than he is currently for his guide to FFA. It wasn't the first guide, and it wasn't the last, however it is probably the most comprehensive guide out there and must have taken countless hours to complete it. While I won't claim that it's completely up to date, it is absolutely worth a read for all of our players both old and new. The entire guide would probably take an hour+ to read, but it's beautifully organized so that you can jump around to different parts of the guide.
I've gone back and made a few grammatical fixes to the guide as well as hyperlinking the index to help people get around. I'm going to re-upload the word version of the document as well as putting it into my Google Docs account viewable to all so that hopefully we never lose this. As you can see from Nooblex's original post below he didn't treat this like it was any big deal, however I think he absolutely deserves a word of thanks from everyone. Who knows, maybe in a few seasons he'll make a re-appearance again.
Thanks Nooblex!
~Mage
Online Copy (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-jj5QMfGCRvM1pab0NtTTlnTkU/edit)
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So I've got a ton going on IRL right now and probably won't come back to FFA.
I do, however, have a gigantic updated version of the guide that I mostly wrote when I was at my peak a few seasons ago. It still needs a little work, but I'm willing to do that even if I'm not playing. Shouldn't take too long.
Worpex said he'd want me to post it here...so how do we do this?
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I guess you email it to us and worpex will find a way to put it in form :
admin@ffamasters.com
But maybe worpex will think about something else :)
PS : plz update the ud part, it was the one you put I think the least time (like saying lich panda dl is playable! lol)
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You can either copy/paste it into a forum topic or email it to us and we'll make a fancy page for it. :D I'd prefer to see it on a fancy page, but its your choice.
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Ok, I'll touch it up and email it to you. What's your email again?
And ugri, ya, it doesn't even resemble the one from like 5 years ago in many respects.
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admin@ffamasters.com
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I miss you nooblex. You and lost.
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Haven't gotten this yet btw, in case anyone was wondering if I was hogging the guide all to myself or something.
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No need for haste, by all means.
Kruppe would be very happy to read this guide.
Dear Sir Nooblex,
take your time.
Mostly appreciated,
Kruppe
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yo why do you talk like that?
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I've just been tweaking some stuff cause since version 2.0 was basically done when I stopped playing last time, there's still a few ways I can improve it. Also busy with job applications, girls, internet marketing and so on -- might still be a few weeks.
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Worpex did you get the version I sent you? Almost done...
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he doesn't read his email that noob! but i did find it 2 day ago, gave it a read, pretty good (only read the elf/map part so far) I think I saw 1-2 type (Que instead of Queue.... unless Que really is good in this case, and I'm just not good enough in english!)
Lot's of thing I already knew (from reading the first version!) But still learned many new stuff (that could have saved me this season Grrrr)
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Just waiting on the final draft. :D And its not MY email, its OUR email. admin@ffamasters.com. Guess who else is an admin here? hmmmmm??
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do you see that little email icon under your avatar? What address does it say if you hover?
HA!
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Also, you mispelled my name, you keep on writting "Fly" instead or "Renaud"!!
(but more seriously, Snahum should be Snamuh)
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forgot the pw again help :(
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This guide reminds me duke nukem forever :icon_mrgreen:
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This guide reminds me duke nukem forever :icon_mrgreen:
The difference being: DNF had breasts.
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So is this guide finished/if so, can someone post it?
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I would like to have a look on that guide, too. He send it to the admins, but noone cares :icon_cry:
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still a few mistakes and missing some information (about maps)
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Just sent the final version. Whew.
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Hopefully we get a view on it soon :icon_biggrin:
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Renaud hasn't checked my email recently, so I don't know if we got it yet.
:D
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yep its here! but it just got here!
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btw, after reading (parts) of this guide, I finally have a build order! (man those shit are imba!)
I would usually just more or less do the same build
Edit: We should wait until after the finals to post it! You can basically know what i'll do 95% of the time after reading that guide :P
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You just don't want me to post it so that your opponents don't know your new tactics!
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wat? I cannot find it :<
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Grrr worp can't you just post the docx since converting that thing to html will take ages!?
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Yeah, sure, I was thinking about doing that. Linked to this post. Enjoy!
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wait this could have been the cute thing you posted in the announcement1 :P
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Jesus Fucking Christ 118 Pages! Well done sir !Ill have a closer look at this guide soon.
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Good job at nooblex. I just took a little glance on it and already liked the things about ud/elf which will improve my game against them. Perfect guide for people that need to develope in ffa to get better. Big respect for your work and as DukeNukemForever your guide is released after centuries :icon_mrgreen:
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Hey, I could pretty easily edit this so that the table of contents would be hyper-linked. Not a big deal, but a bit easier then scrolling through it all to find a section. I obviously would not want to do it without Nooblex's permission though.
And I may be missing a reason not to do it such as when it gets posted it would screw it up. So feel free to say no haha.
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Whoever wrote the orc section is a baddie:
"-Orc is the slowest race for expanding. It takes about 3 minutes longer than Human to have an expansion up and running and a minute or two longer than Undead and Night Elf. A good creeping hero will help even it out a bit but you’ll never be able to expand as fast as Undead or Human, or mass expand as quickly as NE."
So false. I can expand faster than almost any other race/starter combo.
Any orc who goes grunts is bad/dumb on about 8/10 key maps. Yes, you need grunts on market and maybe 1 other map. That's it.
Bad because they are counting on their neighbour to be bad and not t3 chim/griff/wagon them into bits.
Getting rax+grunts is exactly the difference between being T3 rushable and not.
You can argue all you want that pro like darkness goes grunts, but let me ask you this, if darkness 2.0 played NE and matched with Orc Darkness 1.0, do you think 1.0 would stand a chance? Hell no, he'd get chimmed off the map before he got more than 2 bats. Grunt orcs count on others to be bad and not t3 rush the OP cheeser orc. Period.
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Rygo wat
Orc is indeed the slowest expansion race at the start, we are most vulnerable early game as a result. Things are evened out a bit when T3 hits, but we still are the weakest race in this respect, with undead being a close second.
Grunts vs HH early game is a player choice, there is nothing wrong with either as long as you don't over commit T1 if you don't need to and get plenty of wood peons for T2/T3 prep (unless shredder map)
An orc also is very capable of getting bats faster than an elf gets chims, it's just trying to maintain that economy that is the issue.
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Darkness, give me micro as good as yours and I will own you any time you go grunts or hh.
The only feasible way to fight off equal-skill t3 rush as orc is no rax, 1 hero straight t2 tech at 18/20 or 20/20, then bats or wyvs.
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Sure, orc can get a fast expo, but human/elf/ud can get it faster
Fact is, orc can't build it's hall before and just move it into place
It can't have 5 peon building at once
And, it takes 150 sec to build a hall vs 100 for haunted mine
It's not just about creeping, simply making the darn hall takes more time :(
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Renaud,
Let's make it a challenge. You choose a map, and any race but orc. See if you can expo quicker than me.
The only time you will do it quicker is if you put 5 peasants on it to build faster, but you will spend a fuck ton extra gold on it. I will initiate mine faster though.
FML ladder maps I won't be able to expo fast on:
-Market
Deathrose, Monsoon and Deadlock I need some practice on.
Gold Rush, Silverpine, Twilight, Harvest are ez pz.
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Dude.
It's a matter of fact that ALL 3 races can expand faster then Orc.
A great hall takes (by far) the longest build time to complete. Elf can expo WAY faster then you with a AoW + 1 archer tavern build, AoW creeping. Undead can also expo faster with a quicker build time Haunted Gold Mine. Lastly, Human can obviously expo faster with peasents. Why would a human only expo with 1 peasent when one of its racial benefits its power building? I'm not sure how you can possibly think Orc can expand the fastest.
And another note... You can start with grunts every time and be prepared for tier 3 rushes, every time. IN solo or 2s, the typical tier 1 start is 4 grunts before tier 2. In FFA, typically its 2 or 3. Having only 2 or 3 instead of 4 allows you to get your tier 2 hero right away, tech tier 3 and also add 2 production buildings.
Also: Where is this guide, I don't see it! And for a shameless plug, soon enough I will have a guide as well that will have a fresh perspective on FFA with a lot of contributions from the community. It will be a unique guide aside from nooblex legendary book to enjoy and utilize in its own respect!
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Choose an FML map besides market, post replay.
I will post mine. Let's go, sons.
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aight ill get on it!
but I do agree some of the orc stuff is maybe outdated (like assuming that an orc going air will have a panda)
Then again, I mostly read the elf part and the general one, din't read the orc/hu/ud
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Renaud - Gold Rush, Silverpine, Twilight, Harvest I can post my time quicker. The other 3 I need to practice for awhile, because they are more tricky.
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Darkness, give me micro as good as yours and I will own you any time you go grunts or hh.
Darkness got a little rusty, you could have a shot without exchanging micro :icon_razz:
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Grrrrr Now you give me the list of map! I just wasted 5:32 on moonsoon getting it! (since im elf I waited for the mine to be entangled with 5 wisp)
Aight ill go try on these maps!
Edit: ill have to change my name lol, WorldEdit doesn't make nice replay :P
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K time is 5:02 for silverpine
(figured why the speed was slow, it was from last game where i slowed it down at the end to quit at the right time)
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Yeah, I'm not going to beat that.
New rule: Expo and T2 going.
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k!
(btw imo we only need 1 worker in the newly build expo, this rule is mostly for orc/ud since I'll have 5 wisp by the time the entangle is done)
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Going T2 and 5 worker on active mine
Silverpine
:ne: 5:10
:ud: 4:50
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4:53 with T2 90% done. Could do more workers (if it wasn't SP), then t2 would be slower, obv. I can probably cut down 10-15 sec, was my first attempt.
Which BO do you use? How many archers/fiends? Do you pre-build as NE?
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For ne I did the prebuild build in the guide (I think I had 1-2 archer by the time I started creeping)
For ud I used gouls, I had about 4 for creeping and 2 that stayed for more wood
:hu: 4:05 on sp (but we already knew they where imba because of fast build)
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How far was T2 progress as HU?
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about 70%
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:undead: 3.21sec with T3 34% done.
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lol Worp I call shens on that, post replay.
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On Silverpine:
:hu: 3:39 with 5 worker and T2 40%
:ud: 4:12 with 5 acos and T2 15%
:ne: 4:55 with 5 wisps and T2 95%
:orc: 4:56 with 5 peons and T2 80%
thats a funny competition, gonna try to beat Renaud's NE time :icon_mrgreen:
edit: :ne: 2:46 with 5 wisps in expo and no tech. But I wouldn't recommend this strat for serious games :icon_mrgreen:
P.S: I'm missing a cool lol-smiley here :(
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lol I loved how this entire things turned into a "who can expand faster" debate.
First of all, look at the stats above. HU will always be faster because of power build, UD's mine builds faster and doesn't need to clear creeps (+you can do the tavern build in the guide and tech much faster + FE too) and NE is faster with faster tech.
Second, on maps like market, monsoon and deathrose orc is much slower.
Third, 5 peons on gold from walking them is rarely a good idea in real games, unless it's a shredder map.
Fourth, who cares, it's one bullet point FFS.
:)
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Nooblex play season 12 please! 1 game every 2 weeks is manageable!
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lol Worp I call shens on that, post replay.
Oh darn, I think I forgot to save it!
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lol I loved how this entire things turned into a "who can expand faster" debate.
First of all, look at the stats above. HU will always be faster because of power build, UD's mine builds faster and doesn't need to clear creeps (+you can do the tavern build in the guide and tech much faster + FE too) and NE is faster with faster tech.
Second, on maps like market, monsoon and deathrose orc is much slower.
Third, 5 peons on gold from walking them is rarely a good idea in real games, unless it's a shredder map.
Fourth, who cares, it's one bullet point FFS.
:)
No I realize I was wrong now. The resources to T2 and expo aren't as tight as I remembered.
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And practice, yeah, feel free to edit it so it's more user friendly. Probably would be a good idea to post it somewhere too, I don't think most people even know it's here.
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upload it to google docs
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i'm honestly flabbergasted by this guide - it's really nicely made.
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i'm honestly flabbergasted by this guide - it's really nicely made.
No it's not. I'm actually flabbergasted by you being flabbergasted by it.
j/k It's a decent guide, not as good as Ebo's Guide to Orc circa 2003 of course.
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you mean "An Orc’s Guide to All Things Free-For-All-ish By The Goddess"
Really? "The Goddess"?
http://web.archive.org/web/20071013222708/http://clan-lone.com/eOrc.html :D
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Either LordFergo or XHunters or whoever uploaded screwed with it.
Btw reference to purple sky in there... holy shit, I forgot how long ago I thought of it.
And holy crap I was a youngun when I wrote it... wow, just wow. Did I really write like that?
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Lol, I can't believe that's actually by Ebo =D
So many corny jokes
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Lol, I can't believe that's actually by Ebo =D
So many corny jokes
I was like... 7 years old when I wrote it. FUCK.
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hahahahahaha
"And I will warn you right away – Humans are extremely annoying race, usually grossly overpowered in late game – always try to take out the human first (yes, even if there is a chim-teching NE near by). Look at it this way – even if they hit someone other than you first, you will still lose as their heroes get so buffed on experience that even backstabbing will not stop them. Humans are still left to tech quietly these days, but I am expecting people to learn soon"
12 years later... nope, people still don't realize hope op hu are.
And, golden words from wayback:
"Like I said, though, you should never let HU get to high levels, if you want to win the FFA of course."
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"As useful as it sounds, blademaster is not really such a useful hero after all." I think some people might disagree now =D
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That was before the massive buffs.
BM users back then were laughed at... they were typically kids who chose the OMG NINJA HERO KEKE and harassed workers like morons.
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Haha yeah I know, that's why I said now. I was just laughing at how some aspects have been pretty similar and others have had radical changes.
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When I started to play ffa in 2004, I found an article named "UD - terror of the FFA?". Explaining that UD with CL fiends were unbeatable.
http://warcraft.wgpower.net/warcraft-3-les-mort-vivants-en-ffa.html
in french
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I didn't know Worpex spoke French.
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Fkin Cryptlord cheesers
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I didn't know Worpex spoke French.
I don't, Renaud translated it for me. :icon_biggrin:
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Well in this guide they mention that the shee's ams can block spell (it did in roc, not sure if it ever did it in tft) If that would be the case, you can be damn sure ud would be in the top of ffa (just imagine that hit and run that can't be hexed/bolted/slowed/stun/w.e)
edit: Argh, reading this makes me want to play ud FFA :D
edit2: oh nvm, just remembered ud had no real way to kill mass towers /runs back to his chims
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/ realizes that as elf he'll always struggle against orc, and probably lose / cozies up in a tank.
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Everyone should just play Orc and HU.
Or.... stop being retards, and if you are NE or UD, team Orc and Hu right away instead of being retarded and fighting each other.
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edited the first post to have a link to the guide, and here it is again
Here it is! (http://ffamasters.com/league/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=318.0;attach=32)
now just need to sticky it, and i guess i should move it to strategies?
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Yeah you can sticky it in strategy for a now. Worpex said he wanted to do the HTML so there's a linked table of contents, then make it its own page...just might take a while.
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Well i tried to point ppl to this guide a few time, and everytime it's a pain to find it, even though i know where it is!
So imagine those who don't!
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Yeah you can sticky it in strategy for a now. Worpex said he wanted to do the HTML so there's a linked table of contents, then make it its own page...just might take a while.
yeah, 100+ pages. XD I started working on it. Def needs the linked table of contents, otherwise its just one massive wall of text. haha.
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I'll be back Saturday and create a word doc with linked table of contents. From there need worp to do whatever.
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You don't need to mage, i'm putting it into HTML and doing the same thing so that its on the site.
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Awesome, I'm a sucker for being lazy <3
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Hey, do we still have this? Original link no longer works.
I believe the WCR version is an older version, but here's the link to it. (http://www.wcreplays.com/articles.php?get=341)
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Hello,
I am going to ask the same question as above but does anyone have still the updated version of Nooblex's FFA guide? I know the WCR version but it is an old one.
If anyone has it would be much appreciated if you could put it online or if you could send it to me at: thomas.vollant@gmail.com
Thank you very much guys
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i found a nooblexguide in my folders. i think it is the newer one, not sure though. i uploaded it on ffareplays, since i don´t know how to upload files here.
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i found a nooblexguide in my folders. i think it is the newer one, not sure though. i uploaded it on ffareplays, since i don´t know how to upload files here.
Thank you Slythe!
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Do we have this? If so can someone send it to me and I'll format it to be put up and stickied on the first page. Idk why it isn't currently.
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I have one, not sure if it's the latest one
118 page
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Added the attachment in the original post
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I'm going through it now adding in hyperlinks to the index and just generally cleaning up then will repost with a downloadable copy as well as an online viewable one from Google Docs