FFA Masters League
General => Strategy => Topic started by: rygorych on March 27, 2012, 08:50:43 am
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No flaming. Let's avoid the word "cheese", and my apologies for even starting the whole cheese thing.
I want everyone's thoughts on which race ranks where in FFA, depending on the combo.
Now, before I do the rankings, a few disclaimers:
-This is not just about winning a battle. You can win every battle, but lose the war (bonus points to all the ASOIAF nerds who recognize the reference).
-This is about overall chance to win the game assuming EQUAL MICRO/MACRO SKILL, EQUAL POSITIONING AND EQUAL MAP ITEM DROPS.
-You can assume an average map where everyone is in a somewhat fair position .You can assume any map you can consider fair (likely one that favors HU and Orc the least). Please list the map you consider fairest to all races.
So, please rank the following on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being strongest, the following combos. Equal scores imply equal chance to win the average game.
*Note* hero combo order not critical. Assume any order you think is the strongest (e.g. TC first or SH first)
Human
-HU AM MK PAL
-HU Panda MK PAL (wreck combo)
-HU Alch MK PAL (johny combo)
-HU BM MK PAL (w8man combo)
-HU Any other hero((Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) MK PAL
-HU AM BM PAL (q-veta combo)
-HU Panda Alch PAL (htrt combo)
-HU Any other combo without MK (persuade combo)
-HU Any other weird hero combo without PAL
Orc
-OR BM TC SH (yz/dase/most orc combo)
-OR DR TC SH (darkness combo)
-OR FS SH TC (ebo combo)
-OR SH TC Panda (ss combo)
-OR Alch TC SH
-OR PL TC SH
-OR Any other hero (Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) TC SH
-OR Good heroes, but no TC
-OR Good heroes, but no SH
-OR Weird heroes, no TC/SH at all
Night elf
-NE Panda KOTG POTM (blex combo)
-NE DR Panda POTM (eshan combo)
-NE DR Panda Warden (lost combo)
-NE DH KOTG POTM (old school combo)
-NE DH KOTG Panda (darker combo)
-NE Any other combo without PANDA
-NE Any weird hero combo
Undead
-UD DK DL LICH (everyman's combo)
-UD DK LICH DR (duck's combo)
-UD DK DR PL (bobas combo)
-UD DK Panda Lich
-UD DK Cryptlord + Lich or DL (worpex op combo)
-UD non-DK combo
-UD weird hero combo
Let me know if you want other combos added. I will post my rankings in a separate post, please follow the format if you're not sure.
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Fairest map to all:
#1: Twilight. No mana fountains, good wood, good shops, good mine placement, 8 player = least luck. The only problem is shredder which favors ORC, but disfavors HU, which makes it pretty fair to me.
#2: Harvest very similar to twilight except it's 6 player, which makes it inferior in terms of fairness.
#3: Deadlock. Favors UD and NE, disfavors Orc and to lesser extent HU. Low creeps, open spaces, no items, no fountains or shredders, decent wood. Problem with this map: high luck factor. Bad position = very high chance of being screwed.
I base my rankings of hero combos and races on the above map choice.
Average fairness:
Crucible
Gold Rush
Not fair at all:
Savage storm
Marketplace
Silverpine
Human
10-HU AM MK PAL
9-HU Panda MK PAL (wreck combo)
7-HU Alch MK PAL (johny combo)
8-HU BM MK PAL (w8man combo)
6-HU Any other hero((Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) MK PAL
7-HU AM BM PAL (q-veta combo)
7-HU Panda Alch PAL (htrt combo)
5-HU Any other combo without MK (persuade combo)
4-HU Any other weird hero combo without PAL
Orc
9-OR BM TC SH (yz/dase/most orc combo)
9-OR DR TC SH (darkness combo)
7-OR FS SH TC (ebo combo)
7-OR SH TC Panda (ss combo)
7-OR Alch TC SH
6-OR PL TC SH
5-OR Any other hero (Naga, Tinker, Beast, FL) TC SH
3-OR Good heroes, but no TC
4-OR Good heroes, but no SH
2-OR Weird heroes, no TC/SH at all
Night elf
6-NE Panda KOTG POTM (blex combo)
6-NE DR Panda POTM (eshan combo)
6-NE DR Panda Warden (lost combo)
5-NE DH KOTG POTM (old school combo)
5-NE DH KOTG Panda (darker combo)
4-NE Any other combo without PANDA
3-NE Any weird hero combo
Undead
6-UD DK DL LICH (everyman's combo)
5-UD DK LICH DR (duck's combo)
5-UD DK DR PL (bobas combo)
3-UD DK Panda Lich
2-UD DK Cryptlord + Lich or DL (worpex op combo)
1-UD non-DK combo
1-UD weird hero combo
Based on this, I'd rank the chances to win any given game.
E.g. a race/hero combo with 10 has 2x more chances to win than a race/hero combo with 5.
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-HU Alch MK PAL (johny combo)
I'd just like to point out that this is also my combo, been using it since 2006. (Technically there were sky_fireice, Turbo.LT and some guy named archemage before me but they're probably dead now so it's all me)
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Id more closely associate DH/Panda/Potm with Sta, not eshan, because ehsan is bad.
And cmon Ebro you know TC/Panda/SH is and alwyas will be Emmi's
:hu: :hu: :hu: :hu:
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Id more closely associate DH/Panda/Potm with Sta, not eshan, because ehsan is bad.
And cmon Ebro you know TC/Panda/SH is and alwyas will be Emmi's
:hu: :hu: :hu: :hu:
SS came before emmi! But I guess you're right, it was Emmi's signature combo. 15 wyverns + panda vs mass garg, YE.
Anyways, more ranking please, I'm curious how people feel.
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I thought SS was just DR/TC/SH ?_?
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I thought SS was just DR/TC/SH ?_?
Eventually, but originally he was SH first, then TC/Panda.
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When did eshan go DH/Panda/Potm? He went something like DH/Panda/DR!
I would also agree that DH/Panda/Potm should go too sta, although everyone used that during his time in FFA so...
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This is not just about winning a battle. You can win every battle, but lose the war (bonus points to all the ASOIAF nerds who recognize the reference).
Reference to Rob.
Also you don't think Alch panda dr should get its own combo category :icon_surprised: It made Renaud and Red want to team me pretty badly haha.
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Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed
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I'm a little confused. Does your evaluation of hero combos account for synergies with typical armies?
Besides that, I'd pretty much agree with your ratings, but I'd rate Lost's elf combo and DK Lich DL at least 7. (And perhaps a few other elf combos)
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I'm a little confused. Does your evaluation of hero combos account for synergies with typical armies?
Besides that, I'd pretty much agree with your ratings, but I'd rate Lost's elf combo and DK Lich DL at least 7. (And perhaps a few other elf combos)
Armies are irrelevant for the sake of the evaluation Dase. You can assume any armies you believe are best in any given average game. Since heroes are constant, and armies are variable, the latter can't really be taken into consideration along with the first. If someone says : "ok guyes, I will not make bats this game" , sure you can believe him, but he can easily lie too. On the other hand, once someone takes FL NAGA Tinker, they are stuck with those heroes forever.
Re: top elf and Ud combos, I'd say they are in the 6-7 range, but assuming everyone is equal skill level (e.g. maga-skilled orc vs maga-skilled ud), I'd go for the lower number. I think with higher skill the imbalance becomes clearer.
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Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed
Yeah, but Red wasn't on his last army!
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Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed
Yeah, but Red wasn't on his last army!
you also werent on your last army, you where all liers! Only I told the truth :(
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Whenever everyone is down to last army, the guy with the alch is teamed
Yeah, but Red wasn't on his last army!
you also werent on your last army, you where all liers! Only I told the truth :(
Irrelevant!
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Re: top elf and Ud combos, I'd say they are in the 6-7 range, but assuming everyone is equal skill level (e.g. maga-skilled orc vs maga-skilled ud), I'd go for the lower number. I think with higher skill the imbalance becomes clearer.
I think the opposite is true for FFA - long time ago I wrote somewhat of an essay of why I would always prefer BM over DR. The gist was - with DR you give the ball to your opponent. If he's good enough, he will dispell quickly, and your hero becomes basically useless (charm aside). With BM, this is not the case. You may try to negate him with sleep or snares, but this is where the orc player gets the ball back and may dispell himself.
I strongly believe higher skill is the main diminishing effect regarding imbalance. In solo, imbalance still matters on the highest levels, but this is due to the fact that solo pros really play close to the perfect game (control, macro, timing). That's something almost unachievable in FFA, there's always a lot of mistakes to capitalize on.
An orc army, for example, is very often perceived to be ridiculously imbalanced because people don't dispell properly (not saying it's easy). It is much less scary unbuffed/dispelled. Another example: a terrible UD stands no chance vs a terrible night elf in gargs vs chippo. A good UD will know how to hit and run and may very well beat an equally skilled elf.
Edit: In my opinion, the underlying problem is perceived imbalance vs imbalance.
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I think you have some good points, but I still wouldn't say that higher skill = less imbalance.
In many cases, higher skill = better exploitation of imbalances
In other cases, you're right, higher skill = better countering of imbalances
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It's a very complex topic - DR is often perceived to be overpowered in OvU. Whenever I played UD though, I was much more afraid of BM, since I couldn't simply dispell his strength away. Higher skill at the least takes away some of the commonly perceived imbalances which, in my opinion, are not imbalances at all.
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I perceive bats to be imbalanced because they kill themselves, denying any xp, while giving the orc a ton
Hex can be dispelled, and I don't mind it nearly as much as bats
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I perceive bats to be imbalanced because they kill themselves, denying any xp, while giving the orc a ton
Hex can be dispelled, and I don't mind it nearly as much as bats
In a perfect world, you're right.
In the real world, bats give 2x normal exp, die brutally fast, and aren't resource efficient in countering anything except light air. Bats are useless once gold counts dwindle. A good UD with 12 garg can win a game vs 100 food griff average skilled hu. So can a good NE with 12 hippo/dott. An orc with 12 bats can't. Bats are only good when you have a gold to build a real army afterwards.
Bats are fine. Orc heroes, taurens and casters are OP, not bats.
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are you counting heroes? Because if you are, I CALL BS!
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are you counting heroes? Because if you are, I CALL BS!
Don't get this. Counting where?
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when you said 12 bats can't kill 100 food gryph, but 12 garg or 12 hippo could
Because if you don't count hero, you are saying a good player with 12 hippo could kill an average player with 25 gryph (total bullshit)
And even if you are, it basically means that you think that Hu hero are total trash
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you have some opinions which few ppl disagree with
bats are lie renaud advocates one of the most imba units
late game rather than 3 frosties id have 10 bats, much rather actually (esp with orc heroes)
what is important is food count comparisons. if i want to win vs similar skill orc i need 100 food, extremely fast clicks for staffs+scrolls and cyclone bm/dispel hex.
gryphons are not countered by bats, neither are frosties. however wyverns and chims as well as hippos and gargs (except great stone form) are completely taken apart.
bats only die fast if u have no sentry ward to prepare you to shift click air. good ud with 10 gargs no chance vs 20 gryphons esp with heroes even without no chance. orc does not need army bm/tc/sh is army. 12 hippo dott no chance vs 20 gryphons either. with even food count ofc. somewhere someone checked how effective bats are.
the point is that bats become more effective the ore you have cos of splash.
3 chims vs orc and orc is fucked with bats however 10 chims and you are fucked more than him. however 3 chims are killed in 15 sce seconds by one on bm, one hex and one caster focus fire with purge.
however i think tanks are also far more imba. 3 human heroes with 1 tanks cannot be killed by ne if continuous staff is used and not atleast 50 food and silence/keeper are used.
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"orc does not need army bm/tc/sh is army"
A common myth. SH dies in seconds to focused fire by any heavy air + nuking /disabling heroes. Orcs have no staffs to save it. Stormbolt to the face + griffs/entangle + chims / ud nuke + frosties destroy even a periapt loaded sh in seconds.
Note, I'm not saying SH is bad. I'm saying that it's common misconception that orc triple hero can take on entire armies and win.
They can take reasonably on small armies (under 40 food) and weaker heroes (see my game vs louis on crucible, where I came regularly to kill 1 chim, then backed off to heal/mana up. my heroes were much higher than his, he had 3 chims 2 mgs and 3 heroes). No way I would win this fight if he had a disable or had equal lvl heroes.
Also, I don't normally use BM.
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"Also, I don't normally use BM."
You used him 66% of the games so far :/
And most good orc player have invul pot on SH, combine that with the good old "I can heal myself llololol" spell, and you have a hero that won't die.
But go ahead! Focus him while the bm kills half your army
BM TC SH are not able to kill 100 food army, that IS a myth
BM TC SH with a shaman and a walker are able too do it
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Focus him while the bm kills half your army
BM TC SH are not able to kill 100 food army, that IS a myth
BM TC SH with a shaman and a walker are able too do it
Myth. Not possible vs a player of equal skill. 40-50 food at best, and not vs HU with instant 600 hp heals, and only if the orc hit and run rather than stay in fight.
I used BM once out of 10+ games in FML. Last game was a joke combo.
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Oh good, you won with a joke combo, that will help the whole "only hero are imba" thing :/
I agree that YZ is a much better player than me, I say it shamelessly. But I still think that i'm a decent player.
His 3 hero and a few casters, killed my 100 food chims and hero, and forced me to TP
No hu player has ever been able to do that to me.
Hu hero are much hard to kill, ill give you that. But they can't kill jack shit, just have to staff the red chims, and keep on focusing the pala. The orc hero will die if the orc is carless, but so will half the chims trying to kill them
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I agree that YZ is a much better player than me, I say it shamelessly. But I still think that i'm a decent player.
His 3 hero and a few casters, killed my 100 food chims and hero, and forced me to TP
No hu player has ever been able to do that to me.
Link to rep and at which point battle occurs please.
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S11 Finals
euhhh I don't remember the time, but it's when both me and Starshaped took turn losing bunch of units in order to kill a few towers.
We only managed to kill most stuff once we got in together, SS fighitng for his lives against the heroes, while I was chimming building (and then I allowed him to rebuild like an idiot T_T)
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it happened with me vs lw or vs seksi on crucible half a week or so ago
u dont pay attention and orc can micro and suddenly 8 chims dont help. he stomps before u entangle. then hexes ur staff hero while killing ur other hero then kills the rest.
or he hexastomps and focuses chims
even with 8 chims u absolutedly need dryaed and talon dryad vs hex talon vs bm and then hope talon not hit by stomp. it is so difficult i tell you.
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I don't understand the focus on hero combos. Yes BM/TC/SH and AM/MK/PL are stronger than UD and NE combos, but that doesn't mean they'd be useful for UD or NE. There's no point in looking at individual hero combos from a balance perspective. Balance is race vs race, given all variables.
That being said, I don't think any once race is universally strongest. The map, races in the game, and skill level makes a huge difference in the power of any particular race.
Tenatively, however, I'd say something like this, assuming 4 good players:
Orc > NE and UD, and < HU
HU = UD, NE and > Orc
NE = HU and UD and < Orc
UD = NE and HU, < Orc
Again, this varies based on the map, skill level, positions, and hero combos chosen. I'm sure many people will disagree with some of this, but I'll explain why this is my opinion on racial balance in FFA.
Orc > NE - I don't think Blizzard concieved bats with the idea of unlimited gold and 100 food armies in mind. Assuming equal skill, bats vs air tends to even out in gold, but give the orc bigger heroes.
Orc > UD - I think the Dase vs Yane game posted on the replay pack is a good illustration of this, because you get to see 45k worth of armies thrown at each other. Orc wins almost every single one, despite Yane being a pro solo player.
Orc < HU - There will probably be some disagreement here, but I think this is in HU's favor. Priests make bats impractical, and good adaptation counter with hawks, tanks and gyros can handle wyverns. With Mass TP/Blizzard, Haze/Bof or Acid/Transmute, I think HU has the advantage here.
NE = UD - As Dase said, bad UD's get trashed by bad NEs, but at a high level of play, good use of hit-and-run nukes, garg micro, destroyers and stone form makes this matchup pretty even.
NE = HU - Again, this is a skill thing. NE's who can't play vs tanks get trashed by HU. However, NE's who use Dotts instead of hippos, a combo that gets DH or Panda leveled quickly, use scrolls, and generally avoid straight fights before starfall or tranq - they can handle HU just fine.
HU = UD - Hero levels are a huge deal here, so despite the fact that I think this matchup is relatively even, you rarely see even games. If the UD has big heroes, HU doesn't stand much of a chance vs the nuke. The opposite, however, is also true: Mass TP, Transmute or banish/bolt/light prevents hit and runs, and puts the game in HU's favor.
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Like I said before, maps play a huge roll too.
Single choke = extremely beneficial for NE.
Markets = extremely beneficial for Orc
Big creeps = great for HU, Orc and UD, terrible for NE
Large open maps = great for UD, Orc and mass tp HU, bad for NE
Lots of expos = great for NE, not much benefit to other races
Shredder = hugely beneficial for HU and Orc, helpful for UD, basically irrelevant for NE.
That being said, here's what I'd say for picking finals maps:
Harvest - Something for every race and starting positions don't fuck you. Best imo.
Twilight - markets, shredders, size, creeps and lack of chokes put this in favor for Orc and HU, but it's a really good overall map.
Market - Really orc and HU biased. Especially orc.
Goldrush - Relatively balanced, but makes for extremely long games.
Whew.
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You people are all gay, especially Ebony, with the spamming of this garbage.
Nelf heroes suck they lack synergy. In FFA they are about either A) pumping up your chims (POTM), extending your AA's life (bof/haze) or stunning for a chim focus fire (kotg). Since they cant fight, need high levels, and suck, I give them a 5.
Undead heroes have synergy and can owndizzle but need good levels (5/5/3 id say.) Fortunately they can get this cause Fiends rewl at creeping. Undead also is a good rush race. Since this crap thread is only counting three good creeping maps (for undead I mean) Ill give them an 8.
Orc heroes and human heroes are basically a push at 10. Archmage blows below 6, mk and pally below 5. Fortunately they have good creepign so getting like 5/4/3 on these maps is easy. Orc has decent creeping but as renaud already pointed out can abuse bats for easy XP. Thats why they get a 10.
Done.
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You people are all gay, especially Ebony, with the spamming of this garbage.
Nelf heroes suck they lack synergy. In FFA they are about either A) pumping up your chims (POTM), extending your AA's life (bof/haze) or stunning for a chim focus fire (kotg). Since they cant fight, need high levels, and suck, I give them a 5.
Undead heroes have synergy and can owndizzle but need good levels (5/5/3 id say.) Fortunately they can get this cause Fiends rewl at creeping. Undead also is a good rush race. Since this crap thread is only counting three good creeping maps (for undead I mean) Ill give them an 8.
Orc heroes and human heroes are basically a push at 10. Archmage blows below 6, mk and pally below 5. Fortunately they have good creepign so getting like 5/4/3 on these maps is easy. Orc has decent creeping but as renaud already pointed out can abuse bats for easy XP. Thats why they get a 10.
Done.
All fair statements, and thanks for your input, except I'm not gay, I'm actually quite hetero, though open to MMFF or MMF experimentation.
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Good post as well, thanks for your input Nooblex, I pretty much agree with all your points except that Shredder benefits HU. I think HU doesn't want shredder maps because shredder benefits Orc more, and therefore HU loses their woodcutting research advantage, which they would have on non shredder maps.
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In terms of race match ups you're talking about maps? Maps don't matter for shit in FFA. Here are some other thoughts I have on the little things as well..
Single choke = Maybe beneficial for some races, since I can see it can be kind of dangerous in some situations
Markets = Universal. There's something in there for everyone.
Big creeps = Not depending on the race, but depending on the units you choose to go
Large open maps = Great for any fast moving race.
I thought it was widely known that asians were the best race in FFA.
If I had to rank any racial combinations it would be
In terms of mother\father\possible distant relativity
10 - Asian/Asian/Asian
9 - Asian/Asian White
4.5 - Asian/White/Asian
4.5 - White/Asian/Asian
3 - White/White/Asian
3 - Asian/Black/Asian
2 - Asian/Black/White
Everything else is <1
I have come up with some pure Africans that play warcraft well though. But I'm sure that their grand grand ancestors were Asian of some sorts.
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Good post as well, thanks for your input Nooblex, I pretty much agree with all your points except that Shredder benefits HU. I think HU doesn't want shredder maps because shredder benefits Orc more, and therefore HU loses their woodcutting research advantage, which they would have on non shredder maps.
I think HU benefits more because they have such an insane need for lumber. HU needs all 4 attack/armor upgrades while orc needs 3, sometimes 2, and they need virtually all units and most of their tech. Orc can ignore raider upgrades, HH upgrades, grunt upgrades, spiked upgrades, demolisher upgrades, and so on.
More than anything though, shredders allow HU to mass expand quickly and let them power build several expansions.