Feedback for S23

[zTsoso]

Much of what you say is true Mog, but I don't agree at all with your point that "subtle sitting in your main doing nothing for 1 hour" is what makes FFA great. To be frank, there are only a handful of people here in FML that enjoy long games. Some of them even see this narrow type of FFA that FML offers as the only source of high level competitive of FFA.

This is in my view an illusion that has been built on season after season till we only see 4-way format as the legitimate type of high level ffa. There are several aspects of FFA that are left out - you can try take a break and play some ladder games and see what different kind of skills it takes to win games there. It is not just micro and bulldozing over your opponents. It is also about making subtle moves to deceive your opponents.. In other words skills that allows you to take advantage of the situation.

What I would like to see is a change that encoruages action and stops a trend of 3-4 hour games. Right now FML scares viewers away and talented solo players (or upcoming FFA players). Everyone likes to watch the action and strategy behind FFA, but no one likes to watch a ffa game where nothing happens for hours - not even the players in the tournament. I don't get why some are so reluctant to experiment with new ideas. This just seems to confirm the point that a lot of old players here in FML are conservative and less open minded to ideas.

[Dovekie]

Also as a side note, the players who are super passive are not typically the ones winning.

Dude you and j33. are easily some of the most passive FFA players I have ever seen and have between you won 3 titles over the past few seasons.  In fact I've seem some absolutely terrible games where you two get rewarded so ridiculously hard for literally doing nothing and staying out of trouble. There's nothing "beautiful" about that, contrary to what you think.  But I mean, if thats what you find interest in, the current FML style can randomly reward you like crazy because of it, so more power to you.

[FML|WorpeX]

Much of what you say is true Mog, but I don't agree at all with your point that "subtle sitting in your main doing nothing for 1 hour" is what makes FFA great. To be frank, there are only a handful of people here in FML that enjoy long games. Some of them even see this narrow type of FFA that FML offers as the only source of high level competitive of FFA.

This is in my view an illusion that has been built on season after season till we only see 4-way format as the legitimate type of high level ffa. There are several aspects of FFA that are left out - you can try take a break and play some ladder games and see what different kind of skills it takes to win games there. It is not just micro and bulldozing over your opponents. It is also about making subtle moves to deceive your opponents.. In other words skills that allows you to take advantage of the situation.

What I would like to see is a change that encoruages action and stops a trend of 3-4 hour games. Right now FML scares viewers away and talented solo players (or upcoming FFA players). Everyone likes to watch the action and strategy behind FFA, but no one likes to watch a ffa game where nothing happens for hours - not even the players in the tournament. I don't get why some are so reluctant to experiment with new ideas. This just seems to confirm the point that a lot of old players here in FML are conservative and less open minded to ideas.

I disagree with a lot of this post.

The 4 way format which is commonly used in FML is done so because it is the only form of FFA that is sustainable in a competitive league environment. Games are relatively easy to schedule, easy to get started, we have lots of map options, observer slots are not limited, admin duties are light and scoring is not complicated. However, despite this, we have done multiple seasons and events which incorporate other FFA game-styles.

Calling FML conservative is absolutely crazy as we tend to have some new wrinkle in every season. We have done quite a lot over the past few seasons to lower the game-time of matches including: Adding a bonus for highest score, some seasons had in-game objectives, creating multiple maps with a timer and removing maps from our rotation which create long games. We intend to continue to make changes that we feel will bring the FFA game-type to a place where all game play styles are viable and rewarding.

[Ugrilainen]

Yes the structure of the league has evolved a lot from season to season, not conservative at all.

[ZsSuperCumulo]

Hi. Why who win more score in game get 11 pts ?
Mb to do : 4 place - 5 pts; 2,3 - 10 pts; who win more score in game 15 pts, who win game 15 pts too, and who won game and more scored - 20 pts
I think its more motivation play for win.

This is actually an interesting idea, though I dont know if it would work but it would lead to more players just going rambo and not hoarding and crying for 3 hours

I have to admit, stepping is one of the few players who doesn't give two flying fucks about losing a match. He usually leaves if he loses his 1v1, never seen him stay around being a pest :)

[Dovekie]

I disagree with a lot of this post.

The 4 way format which is commonly used in FML is done so because it is the only form of FFA that is sustainable in a competitive league environment. Games are relatively easy to schedule, easy to get started, we have lots of map options, observer slots are not limited, admin duties are light and scoring is not complicated. However, despite this, we have done multiple seasons and events which incorporate other FFA game-styles

TFW none of reasons listed have anything at all to day with gameplay

[FML|Mog]

@soso I didn't say sitting in a base for an hour is what makes ffa great, I used the example of the last finals where under.sta made the correct ffa choice of doing that to give him the best chance of winning. He could have been forced to attack because of a timer and had the ffa decision made for him with no strategic variance available. .. and some people may enjoy less choices in game play if it forces action, but I say ffa is great because of the many choices available. That makes it more impressive when players consistently make correct ffa decisions. Does that make sense? Because I feel you misinterpreted my post.

@dovekie,  in my own gameplay, I have found consistently over the years the games I am the most passive I lose. I find I am too passive when I am unsure of what decision to make in a game, and that indecision loses me the game. I can't speak for j33, but in his finals match he was passive when it benefited him, but also aggressive when he should have been. He fought under.sta countless times and won the majority of those fights,  and then also forced action against noexxx.

[Peregrine]

I read through all of these responses

Right off the bat:
@dovekie -  you can fuck off because you have never played an FML game. Secondly, you are a total deviant that has very specific personal views about FFA which have nothing to do with the purity of a league or the gametype. 50 minute games? Sorry, this isnt a ladder noobstomp, so no. So as I said, fuck off. "get me away from that"? you dont even play FML so you ARE away from that. Stop commenting upon a league you have no interest in and have never played in

@ DV: youre a smart guy so stop making half thought-out posts. You didnt even play this season. I know youre smart but you also like to play the devil - but in terms of the greater good of the league, your halfassed efforts are undermining

@ mog and J33 - I agree

@ soso - a funny post coming from a player people often call "passive" - anyway the main point is that 4way FFA, as worpex said, is preferable because of scheduling and balance. The other point you made was about "long games scaring away viewers and solo players" - FFA is not a spectator sport. Its a players game. Stop pretending we're gonna get thousands of viewers. The best idea is to make 5-10 minute "highlight" videos of games, that showcase the coolest parts of a match. These videos might intrigue players to check out FFA, and that could build a bigger base. But people who dont PLAY FFA are not gonna sit there and watch 1hr + replays. Thats just NOT gonna happen. Secondly about solo players - highlight videos will get them interested, FFA ladder will get them experienced, and once theyre good enough they will desire a higher level of competition, and they will join FML. its that simple.

FML is great because it takes a chaotic gametype and tries to make a competitive league out of it. Its difficult, but the only goal should be winning. All the other stuff is aesthetic. I'm not saying that the league is perfect, but these huge dramatic changes are not necessary. We all start with 5 food and a main, and then we do our best to take advantage of everything the game offers to win the match. Some people prefer micro, some people prefer strategy, some prefer diplomacy, some prefer crazy hero combos and fun styles. All of these approaches are legitimate, as long as they result in a win. Thats why I'm against extra points for "top score" or a gametype that promotes a certain type of play.

[noexxx]

I have to quote htrt here:
"
FFA behaviorous analysis

Now a little of that social experiment of which ffa consists. We are all unique in our ability to apprehend our environement and think. And that is for sure the case for playing FFA, although some constants seem to appear time and again in the play of many persons. Some tendacies, too, can be used to caracterise people in that kind of game.

First of all, many players, me included, tend to lack the ability to perfectly ignore eventual early injuries inflicted by other players. For example, those three red hp footmen an angry blademaster came in and murdered savagely. Or that walking, smoking tree of life that you used for creeping, and somoene came in your back and killed your tree, forcing your tp and stealing your creep. The possible examples of that are of course too many to be listed. Very rarely have I witnessed or proved myself capable of displaying that flawless impassibility in order to absolutely ignore the event while thinking about the game. Often, it does not mean you are going to rush that clumsy person and ruin your own game for that (yet it still happens sometimes), but at least that person will most likely become your target. And you may try to actually get more from that player than what you should have reasonably hoped for, meaning it is only because of anger that you may ravage him to a point where his mind will be empty of ideas except that of revenge. So the emotive factor must be taken into account, because it may overcome reason. All of us are generally concerned.

Second, most people will usually forget about some Warcraft 3 basics and, based on those misunderstandings, may value to an absurdedly high scale some ridiculous and rather innefective gains made early in the game. The most prized example of this is creeps. Many people have some creeping routes already set in mind, and encountering another player in that route will only lead in blood being spilled and time wasted. All of that for a mere fifty gold, an item whose effect is severly diminuished by the incredible amounts of gold harvested by players combined with the presence of shops, markets and plenties of other huge creep camps... As for the experience, it is valuable, but at that point of the game it means nothing. Simply that it can be your advantage AND your disadvantage, because killing your high level heroes could eventually become a fast levelling sport. Experience on heroes will actually only truly matter if the game ends up into a 1v1 with two people willing to do battles. So, be aware of people’s weird and miscalculated fetishes about the game.

Third, people strongly dislike any sort of crying, yelling, insulting and any other burst of wild emotions. Even though it may arguably be a fine way to manipulate in certain situations, it is generally abhored and a sound way to receive antipathy. If you partly annoy people using those in chat, your annoying behaviour in the game (because everyone annoys everyone one time or another in FFA) will anger even more your opponents. And they may even start playing unrationnaly only to shut you up. So, be aware of how you say things and how often you say them.

Fourth, and most importantly, micro can be dangerous. And it can be for everybody. The objective of micro-management is to control your units in an optimal way in order to fight and harass opposing forces. That does not fit properly in FFA, because it requires a lot of focus, and the main objective of it is to kill and be the winner in any fight or any skirmish, while FFA may sometimes mean to think in a different way. For example, early in the game, if you fast expand with Archmage and footmen, then move on to another creep, meet a Demon Hunter with archers and begin spamming countless clicks to surround the hero, retreat a footman, focus the archers, you may lost touch with many effective macro actions that would have definitely been a wiser choice instead of such a pointless, here is how I call it, burst of solo rage. So be aware that people may get confused in microing, and that you may too.

As for the tendacies, I will present the principal ones I repertoriated during FFA gameplay with original names.

The tiger : Extremly proud, heart instilled of burning fury, the tiger is a predator. Irascible, he will answer provocation with aggressive fighting. Tigers have good micro and won’t dedain using it to its full extent. They don’t hesitate breaking upkeep after upkeep in their lust for battle, which usually gets ultimately toned down after relentless waves of teamming. Can fall for the trickery of monkeys or the impavidity of gryzzlys.

The whale : Lousy, lazy and passive, whales are not agressive by nature. They enjoy swimming around in the vast and regular ocean of hoarding. Not stressed, whales will swallow every single mine that randomly trepasses through their gigantic mouths, and were it not to happen, they will probably die there, being unable (or unwilling) to defend properly. Their micro is usually very poor and they don’t tend to compensate it with good ffa sense and/or effective macro. Rumor has it some whales have already been raped by tigers and grizzlys, mercyfully pulled out of water by their mighty paws.

The monkey : More of an all-around player, the monkey will combine all aspects of the game to a considerable extent, be it micro, macro, ffa sense or manipulation and will carefully prepare his glorious and, if things go well, incoming victory. His plans, though, are often too complex for the whale to understand and he may end up being crushed by its immense body. Moreover, his fragile neck is definitely not out of the mighty tiger’s grasp.

The grizzly : Grizzlys are similar to whales in which that they are very fond of gathering a lot of ressources. But do not be mistaken about their apparent indolence : at the first sign of provocation grizzlys will stand over their full height in a terrific sight to behold. Leave them to their wandering duties over the map, but consider that they may reveal to be the most fearsome opponents late game. They have gold, and they know better than anyone else how to use it. Usually quiet and dangerous enough to elude a tiger’s attention, a grizzly’s routine may on the other hand be spoiled by the monkey’s trickery.

Although presented in a rather funny method, those models correspond to most of the ffa community and thus consist of an excellent source of reasoning as to how to deal with every player. That being said, I personally think the best consistency to pursue in order to acheive victory is either that of a strong and mature grizzly or a mix between tiger and monkey. As long as it is guided by a masterful and indepth understanding of balance of power, the odds of winning will remain high. It requires a lot of scouting and deduction, as well as the ability to pierce any attempt of cheating your perception with manipulation. Keep your blood cold even though you act otherwise, and see as clear as your knowledge of the game allows you to. Remember that your opponents never speak to lose.

Mastering chaos in three ways

I will expose two things here. First, the possible ways ffa games with three players left usually end up. Second, the way I normally try to lead them into a seemingly chaotic carnage while it had throughoutly been planified few minutes ago.

So, basically, what is a three way ? What does it imply ? A three way is a free for all that suffered the loss of a player. Three players remain alive and are confronted to a cruel situation : any attempt of attacking another player may result in a friendly sacrifice for the last player who will eventually get the win. The players will most likely become passive and wait for other people to do moves. They will try to respect balance of power, and eventually the victory will be stolen by either the most patient, skilled or manipulator player. Sometimes, it is sadly the most lucky player. In other circumstances, for example if the three way started with an absence of balance between the three players’ forces, some radical teamming will happen. A sort of teamming that is different from usual one, as it does generally cripple the teammers equally, while utterly destroying the third player. It is in their interest, because it allows a rather fair 1v1 at the end even though it is lame for the victim.

What I propose for three ways requires a deep understanding of what real amount of power other players really possess. I prefer to do absurd yet controlled actions in a three way, actions that do not follow the guidelines of balance of power. More precisely, actions that advantage another player over me. For example, I have often decided to attack somoene in a three way while telling the third player to kill my expands meanwhile. The trick is that he will be teammed after too anyways, but you will take implicit leadership of the game. And if no player plays excessively dumb or unpredictable, you can make sure in a subtle way that out of all the incoming chaos, you will have the greatest power at the crucial point, the point where no amount of teamming will be capable of taking you out because of all the destruction that occured. Let yourself be teammed, team people, destroy a lot of things, scout a lot and reveal your true visage at the edge where confusion overwhelms everyone’s thinking. It may lead in a pitiful situation if somoene plays too dumb, but at that point of the game you should have normally taken into account anyone’s eventual dumbness.


Manipulation

It is the art of chatting in the game, giving yourself a unique style of persuasion either in order to blatantly lie about your current status and falsify the proper course of balance of power or simply to ensure its proper course. It can be used to trick people about your emotional state as well as treating somoene, and can take too many forms to be listed here. In general, my opinion is that manipulation should never be able to alter your real and accurate vision of the game, according that your vision was correct. That way, manipulation, no matter how sensational or skillful it is, can become your own tool in order to read in your opponents’ obvious projects. In other words, you can comprehend how your ennemies conceptualised their own victory. That is an essential, vital information for the point above, mastering chaos in three ways, because the best way to win is not to build up an incredible plan for victory, but to build it based on the other players ones.

My personal ways of manipulation tend to include irony, accurate and embarassing guesses, eloquence, apparence of fairness and sometimes absolute truth."

[noexxx]

FFA is about winning, no matter what you have to do to win. What makes heroes is the fact that they know how to perform the art at his best. If it requires 2 hours of sitting and faking beeing drunk on a snow map just do it, people will remember that performance of yours! If you can win with a tinker running arround the map saying "AHAHAHAHHAH you can't kill me", use that tinker.

PUTTING A TIMER WOULD JUST KILL THE FUN FFA IS, THIS IS THE WORST IDEA EVER. Even I play mostly agressive and I'm against a timer. If there is a timer, I would go am mk pala everygame, rush someone out with the imbalance human has early game, defend 1v2 with 1000 towers and win 80% of the games. Yes human is easy to play if you know how to play them.

J33 was the smartest in the final, after I killed is tree and had 8 builds I said him STOP PLEASE and he answered "DIE" which was the perfect move because it sounded like he wanted to suicide me, so Geasss wouldn't search him. J33 has shown us what a hero is.

Everyone has his playstyle and that is what is beautiful about ffa, you can never do the same because your emotions will never be the same in a game cause we are not robots. As for me, I enjoyed watching 70% of the games this season and enjoyed playing 100% of them. I had a lot of fun in playing them.
This said, I agree we could change a bit the point making system. But the first player should still have a lot of points. IF YOU ARRIVE FIRST AND LOSE THE GAME, YOU'RE A LOSER, A WHINER, you should not be rewarded too much. If you played the best in a football game and lose, you get 0 points. Putting a timer in ffa would bring the same boring matches as in football.

Lightweight's fun rules seems really good to have funny games.

@all the people crying about passive players, just rush them out and stfu. FFA is about finding a solution to every situations. For example, in the final, I find a solution "to lie, manip" for 40 min about the cost of my archmage. It worked really good but the passiveness of the players about doubting about wheter I had an am or no cost me the game. I took some risks doing that but it was Worth it, I hided it for 10 minutes and I'm happy about that. Using a potm in final and vs 2 humans was the best choice.

If players are passive and it works, it is normal for them to stay passive unless they are dumb as fuck, it is the players who cry about passiveness that should rush those players out. I can guarantee you that if a passive players loses 5 games in a row for being passive, he will stop being passive.
That being said,
I want to thank coach shave for being the guy that keeps FFA alive in the chatbox, without him we would have almost no games.
#IWANTSHAVEBACK in skype group!!!!!
Congrats to J33, the hero of this season and of course
LIGHTWEIGHT #1

[Tleilaxu]

Lots of walls of text posted in this thread, I ain't gonna read them all.

I basically agree with DniweV-. Sitting for 4 hours in a game is just too much, it should be the exception instead of the norm, which it is slowly becoming.
Obviously, the goal of FFA is to win, but when everybody hoard and camp for hours to maximize their chances of winning that does not lead to exciting games.
A change in the point system would help, so that the winner doesn't get such a comparatively big advantage.
Some (Eshan, Soso etc.) might of course say that FFA is about winning bla bla bla. and we shouldn't reward rambos, but let's be honest, who cares? FFA isn't balanced, it's not super competitive, it's something we play for fun.

[ObserveAndLearn]

I really agree with Mog's post.
sums it all up pretty much. the players who can balance aggressive with passive play styles are the ones who will always have an edge. and timer kinda kills the game in my eyes. (and i am undead - the most trash race when it comes to ffa lategame)

Also i do agree with zTsoso that FML games lack the funrandomness and chaos that bot games provide

if only we could make next season have no names? it would be impossible to supervise by the admins but would make for one hell of a season.

[FML|Mog]

Noexxx my hero <3

I scrolled past those giant walls of text like "no way in he'll I'm gonna read all that".

But then I started reading and I simply could not stop. Htrt quote was perfect and also your analysis I completely agree with. Very well said sir. And that AM manip on the finals was magical; it was innovative and unique and definitely a highlight of the season!

[Dovekie]

Right off the bat:
@dovekie -  you can fuck off because you have never played an FML game.

This is completely rude and uncalled for.  I ask you not to talk to me like this—you're being both vulgar and wrong.  I've definitely played an FML season and have subbed as well in others.  I've also played a number of tournament/cup games that literally play out exactly the same as FML games.  Stop being rude to me and belittling my opinions. This is called "Ad Hominem" if you don't know, and its a fallacy.

Secondly, you are a total deviant that has very specific personal views about FFA which have nothing to do with the purity of a league or the gametype.

I am not a total deviant at all.  In this thread there are about 5 or 6 of you just talking to each other.  I'm making an assumption here, but I bet half the time you only care about people's opinions who already agree with you.  You, at FML.com, are like a guy at church arguing why church is great.  Of course at least half the people are going to have the same opinions as you.  Obviously others don't agree with you.  Don't tell them to "fuck off". Is something wrong with you dude?  Just cause I and obviously others don't share your opinions isn't an excuse to try and get rid of them.

50 minute games? Sorry, this isnt a ladder noobstomp, so no.

Yeah 70 minute games on small maps, like I said. You can try rereading because now you seem to obviously have skimmed over it and not tried to read what I wrote.

So as I said, fuck off. 

No. I'm not gonna "fuck off" from a community I care a lot about because someone is being really pissy and because my opinions don't coincide with his.

You dont even play FML so you ARE away from that. Stop commenting upon a league you have no interest in and have never played in

I do have a lot of interest in it.  I love FFA, and this is the community I started in.  I know all the names and even though a lot of us are high energy, competitive people, and argue a lot, especially in-game, this is definitely my FFA home.  The thread specifically asked for feedback, and as a legitimate fan of Warcraft 3, FFA, and some of the players in the league, and as a FFA player myself, I am coming to give my feedback.

I think the games are too long, and need a time-limit.  That's my feedback.  Get over it. I also think Redz7z posted some very good ideas on the second page, and agree with a lot of what he has to say.

[FML|WorpeX]

oooookay. I think we have enough information from this thread now. Thank you everyone who posted. We will keep all the suggestion in mind for the next season!