FFA Masters League
League => League Discussion => Topic started by: rygorych on May 09, 2012, 02:48:52 pm
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I can drop an item from my shop for other players to pickup, as long as I still intend to win, correct? Because I intend to use this as part of my strategy. Don't want to hear anything about "feeding" when I do this, which is why I'm asking for a hard confirmation.
Edit: this isn't about the semi. I just want to clarify this and maybe be less ambiguous in the next season.
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stop the pregame manip please.
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Not pregame manip, this is something I want to use extensively in future games, and would love to see other players use as well. Should spice up the games alot (e.g. trading orbs or staffs).
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You would have to give me a hell of a lot to give you a staff as orc..
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You would have to give me a hell of a lot to give you a staff as orc..
3x tiny great hall + orb + 2x scroll of speed for 2x staff
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You would have to give me a hell of a lot to give you a staff as orc..
What if I don't play orc? :) Orbs of Corruption *wink*! OK, OK, this is pregame manip, let's stop before manip police comes to arrest us.
Seriously, all I want is a confirmation from mods that this is OK (I know it is, Worpex said it before), so there is no whining later on about "omg ebo feeding ban pls".
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You would have to give me a hell of a lot to give you a staff as orc..
3x tiny great hall + orb + 2x scroll of speed for 2x staff
1 staff maybe. even giving me another race is a tough trade for infinite blademaster.
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You know if you have the orb, he can't be ported out, right? :) (btw elf staff suck, and are only good for stinky elves themselves. Moonstones on the other hand... ahh eternal night, that's what i'm after!)
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Wreck, your my hope to destroy those purple sky tears with a solid 80 supply griff rush on ebo.
Ps: Hes making his burrow upgrade a little late sometimes, might be his weak point.
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Wreck, your my hope to destroy those purple sky tears with a solid 80 supply griff rush on ebo.
Ps: Hes making his burrow upgrade a little late sometimes, might be his weak point.
wrong game buddy!
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Wreck, your my hope to destroy those purple sky tears with a solid 80 supply griff rush on ebo.
Ps: Hes making his burrow upgrade a little late sometimes, might be his weak point.
wrong game buddy!
]
rofles.
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I remember a game on Deadlock at least 4 years ago where someone was getting tomed hard, and the aggressor told him "Give me the Orb (of corruption) or I'm going to kill you."
Someone got an off-race Orb and someone else went on to live for 10 more minutes in the game. I'm pretty sure the guy with an off-race Orb won the game though, but it was just a hilarious situation to watch.
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Sounds like acceptable manip to me!
:hu: :hu: :hu: :hu:
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Dude I meant to do exactly this to Dase in our game awhile ago. I thought he'll go orc, and I meant to chim-rush him and then blackmail him for items, but he went NE and I went orc instead :icon_lol: and he was the one chimming me!
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I wouldn't bet on it. Depends on our mood and what you actually do. The rules are ambiguous enough that we can use it however we want. :D
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i would assume it would only be acceptable under a very rare occurrence.
Here's a hypothetical situation.
Savage storm, map is MINED OUT. No one has any gold. Wreck is cornered up with mass towers and one hero, me and renaud both have 1 hero left, however renaud has no item or ways to get a zepp, and wreck has no ways to get down. Lets say I need renaud to help kill wreck, and renaud needs me to supply him with gold, so I give him 240 gold worth of items, for a zepp, then we proceed from there.
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OK, well I'll just go by precedents set before to be safe and be sure to make it clear that I'm just manipping everyone into helping me win. :icon_evil:
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If Kruppe does not know what is going on - is he allowed to use maphack?
Only to save some units, that will make Kruppe's plans succeed. Not directly, but it is part of my plans to make other players making decisions to my benefit.
Really, how much deeper can you get.
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i would assume it would only be acceptable under a very rare occurrence.
Here's a hypothetical situation.
Savage storm, map is MINED OUT. No one has any gold. Wreck is cornered up with mass towers and one hero, me and renaud both have 1 hero left, however renaud has no item or ways to get a zepp, and wreck has no ways to get down. Lets say I need renaud to help kill wreck, and renaud needs me to supply him with gold, so I give him 240 gold worth of items, for a zepp, then we proceed from there.
banned for preteam.
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If Kruppe does not know what is going on - is he allowed to use maphack?
Only to save some units, that will make Kruppe's plans succeed. Not directly, but it is part of my plans to make other players making decisions to my benefit.
Really, how much deeper can you get.
Son, are you on any kind of medication? Or trying to be funny?
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If Kruppe does not know what is going on - is he allowed to use maphack?
Only to save some units, that will make Kruppe's plans succeed. Not directly, but it is part of my plans to make other players making decisions to my benefit.
Really, how much deeper can you get.
Son, are you on any kind of medication? Or trying to be funny?
Do by no means call me "Son", person.
I do not write what I think of you.
Stop.
Now.
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sounds weird to me
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lemme put it this way.
Don't item feed.
thanks!
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So even if I'm giving someone else an item in order to win the game, it's still considered feeding? New rule? It`s pretty clear what it says right now:
Feeding can be considered as a player with no chance of winning a game giving either Items or large amounts of Experience to any other player in the game in hopes to give that player a better chance at winning.
It's no problem, and I hope I'm not being a pain in the ass about this, I just want to be clear what I can or can't do so there are no misunderstandings.
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you miss key words which make it ambiguous.
Feeding can be considered as a player with no chance of winning a game giving either Items or large amounts of Experience to any other player in the game in hopes to give that player a better chance at winning.
"Can" as in, this is only an example and not the only circumstance. The rest of the rule is very clear though, you know, the part that you LEFT OUT.
Feeding is not allowed in the FML league.
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I see.... so is there really a point to this rule? Why not just state, "you cannot drop items to be picked up by other players"?
In other words, what's the reason for the ambiguity? Here in this thread you basically make it very clear:
http://ffamasters.com/league/index.php?topic=504.0
To me, the illegal feeding is only when someone is dead with no chance of winning, and they feed their units/items to someone out of spite.
You are correct sir!
And now you're basically stating the opposite.
Damn you Worpex, damn you.
First you play a game without using Crypt Lord, now this?
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The reason for the ambiguity is because its a gray area. Some types of feeding is perfectly acceptable, some is not. In your circumstance, you've refrained from stating what your actual plan is. You've merely said, "I will feed but do it in a way that it'll help me win." I don't know what the fuck that means so i'm just going to say don't do it. :D
I still think that the illegal feeding is when someone is dead with no chance of winning and they feed their units/items to someone out of spite. However, I am only 1 of 3.5 admins on the team and we've always gone by majority rules. What is their stance? I have no idea. Thus, I tell you not to do it at all.
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who is the 0.5 admin, Killin? :D :D
I think it can happen sometimes in game that it is helpfull under some circumstances, but planning from start sounds at worst as preteaming, at best as goofy manipulation in a crappy game to be
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who is the 0.5 admin, Killin? :D :D
I think it can happen sometimes in game that it is helpfull under some circumstances, but planning from start sounds at worst as preteaming, at best as goofy manipulation in a crappy game to be
No, Ugris greatness is that of 1.5.
Killin retired so it's pex/renaud/pinball that are .6667 each
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yeah, killin is the .5. O_O Renaud, Pinballmap and I are the others. lol
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No mage :(?
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Actually I think I'm the 0.5 admin because I now have admin rights to lock and remove topics.
Come at me bros!
Anyways, Worpex, makes sense, though I pretty much did explain what I wanted to do. I wanted to offer other races to trade my shop items for their shop items. It has nothing to do specifically with the semi. This is something I've been wanting to make popular for a long time now since I got hands on HU staffs back as UD . It adds a great edge to the strategy and I think could make the games more fun. To be honest I think this is the final frontier of "playing within the game's rules" that we can go to. The ambiguity in this rule prevents it from being an actual tactic, though, that's why people don't do it. In all of last few seasons, there has been like a total of 1 instance of strategic item giveaway.
This game is based on teaming up. Last semi, I teamed up with Johny and bansheed his peasant to build up HU side. He could kill it, but he didn't, and of course noone would claim this was feeding. It was in his interests to keep peace with me, so he let me have it. Similarly people share or give up mines, very normal. Yet items are somehow this big shady area people are afraid to approach. Unlike gold mines though, items open up a huge level of strategy, where one race suddenly gains entirely new powers by taking other race's items. How is that not good?
Now that said I understand why you'd want to prevent griefing, which is the feeding per definition in FML rules is. Griefing someone to lose when you have no chance to win yourself is of course quite bad... but we already have suiciders, who can threaten suicide as manip or actually do it to grief. And both are accepted as valid tactics.
Maybe run a vote on this one, like we did with Priv chat? Not for this season, but as new rule for next season?
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Oh then leave me alone when I will possess one worker of you guys!
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:icon_lol: Not sure how this is related Ugri.
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Heres the issue with your idea: You have 2 elves in the game and they generally like their shops orb enough to not care about trading for another races orb. Elf already has a staff too so they're set and don't need anything from your shop. The human might be interested in trading you orb for staff, but thats about it. So unless you go undead and tempt Q with their orb, no ones going to want to do business with you. If you go orc, perhaps someone would bite for a tiny great hall but thats about it.
As far as the legality of this goes, Im not really opposed to it. Not a whole lot to trade though as most races either have items which are specific to their race or generic items. Only the orbs and staves are really up for grabs.
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ill trade a staff for an orb of corruption 8D
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Heres the issue with your idea: You have 2 elves in the game and they generally like their shops orb enough to not care about trading for another races orb. Elf already has a staff too so they're set and don't need anything from your shop. The human might be interested in trading you orb for staff, but thats about it. So unless you go undead and tempt Q with their orb, no ones going to want to do business with you. If you go orc, perhaps someone would bite for a tiny great hall but thats about it.
As far as the legality of this goes, Im not really opposed to it. Not a whole lot to trade though as most races either have items which are specific to their race or generic items. Only the orbs and staves are really up for grabs.
Well you're talking specifically about the semi, and like I said this isn't about the semi, I'd just love to have this as an open option for future games (perhaps starting next season). I think the implications of this are huge: imagine orc trading their tiny hall for a few staffs from NE: NE gets lusted/doctored/linked chims, Orc gets hero saves, other 2 players get PISSED THE HELL OFF, mass teaming/chaos starts. I think this would be an awesome fresh change to acknowledge and encourage (barring outright suicide feeding, which would be up to mods to identify and punish).
And I also think you're downplaying the value of items, Worp, as Wreck says, HU orbs suck, they'd loooove to get their paws on Orc or UD orbs... those things are insane. And of course HU staff is extremely good for any race. NEs are perhaps most useless because their staffs are bad without moonwell heals, but AMS pots are great too. UDs got the crazy orbs and.... blight skulls for giggles :)
And besides shop items, let's say UD gets the DK aura item. They want the orc drum items, they offer to trade it, everyone wins, others get pissed teaming/fun chaos begins, obs get popcorn.
Or how about 2 people trading items in a corner, BM runs up and jacks the items/destroys them, nerdrage ensues, everyone teams orc!
I honestly think this would spice up the games alot.
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Flaw with part of that Ebo.
Tiny Great Hall
Creates a Great Hall at a target location. Human, Night Elf, and Undead players will get their racial equivalent town hall.
http://classic.battle.net/war3/basics/heroitemsconsumed.shtml
I do get what you're saying, and I think if implemented correctly it could really spice up the games. I do think something will go wrong at some point though haha. I'm also wondering if this might favor some races more then others.
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It def. favors some races. But this is FFA , strongest race doesn't need to always win (if people are smart, they team the strongest!).
And wow I didn't know that about the tiny hall... A bit of a bummer. Oh well, orcs still have best orb in game to barter :)
As for how it could go wrong... I'm not sure. Might create some drama of: "OMG HU WITH ORBS IN UNSTOPPABLLE" or "OMG ORC WITH STAFF IS OMG". But once again, team the strongest :) 2v1 always wins.
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wait, what? Since when did orcs get the best orb in the game? lol it's good, but Orb is Corruption is the best by far. Most orc players don't even use more than 1 orb of lightening cause it purges their own spells.
Didn't know that about the tiny great hall. Kinda makes it useless to trade to undead but the other races might want it.
How could it go wrong? easy. Someone takes their item and doesn't pay up.
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See? This is what's wrong with missing the internet for a day, I don't even have the patience to read all of that in one go
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How could it go wrong? easy. Someone takes their item and doesn't pay up.
and gets killed for it.
Similarly, let's say I and persuade play our mine buddy game. I promise to leave him 2k and leave nothing instead. He can get really pissed and team me, since I'm now much stronger than him.
I jack an item = I'm stronger = teaming time.
Top-level FFA has a wonderful way of self-regulating. Anyone who gets too strong, particularly in a cheap way (e.g. playing orc!) is asking to get teamed.
P.S. Tangent - Corruption vs Purge is arguable, both are extremely good. Purge's anti-staff feature gives it the edge vs HU/NEs though.
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To simplify the whole topic, I suggest a good 3vs1 early game to kill ebo
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To simplify the whole topic, I suggest a good 3vs1 early game to kill ebo
I don't get how I get blamed for pregame manip or even preteaming when I clearly state that this has nothing to do with the semi or even this season, while comments like this are OK.
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How could it go wrong? easy. Someone takes their item and doesn't pay up.
and gets killed for it.
Similarly, let's say I and persuade play our mine buddy game. I promise to leave him 2k and leave nothing instead. He can get really pissed and team me, since I'm now much stronger than him.
I jack an item = I'm stronger = teaming time.
Top-level FFA has a wonderful way of self-regulating. Anyone who gets too strong, particularly in a cheap way (e.g. playing orc!) is asking to get teamed.
P.S. Tangent - Corruption vs Purge is arguable, both are extremely good. Purge's anti-staff feature gives it the edge vs HU/NEs though.
Or the other players will think you're trying to manip them and wont team the player who stole the item and if you try to kill him alone, he has item advantage and wins!
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How could it go wrong? easy. Someone takes their item and doesn't pay up.
and gets killed for it.
Similarly, let's say I and persuade play our mine buddy game. I promise to leave him 2k and leave nothing instead. He can get really pissed and team me, since I'm now much stronger than him.
I jack an item = I'm stronger = teaming time.
Top-level FFA has a wonderful way of self-regulating. Anyone who gets too strong, particularly in a cheap way (e.g. playing orc!) is asking to get teamed.
P.S. Tangent - Corruption vs Purge is arguable, both are extremely good. Purge's anti-staff feature gives it the edge vs HU/NEs though.
Or the other players will think you're trying to manip them and wont team the player who stole the item and if you try to kill him alone, he has item advantage and wins!
Scout better, noobs! Come on, you can't not see the awesome scenarios this would generate in games. I think it'd be great to try. We ran a vote for private chat, can we run a vote for this before S13 begins?
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Don't think we need a vote for this, in my eyes, this isn't Feeding - its Trading. Completely different thing. Feeding is when one person gets everything, trading is when two people benefit. I don't know at this moment if it should be allowed, but for the moment, there is no rules against it nor is there any reason to say there should be. This is the item equivalent of begging for ones life in exchange for an alliance. Mutually beneficial trade.
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Sounds good, thanks Worpex.
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So now we play WOW?
This is the point where poor Kruppe will leave for good.
You let the same person that bashes another player of this league go unpunished and change the rules of the game for him due to pre game manip?
Good bye FML, goodbye Worpex.
Enough is enough.
Best wishes (only to you, Worpex),
Kruppe
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The rules talk about feeding, not trading. If you would like to discuss your points as to why item trading should not be allowed (or, as to why trading should be considered feeding), please make them. So far, i've heard none. As for Ebo bashing players, I think everyone in the community does this and I don't think its going to stop either. It's not like hes offensive about it, he just calls people cheesers.
I can never tell when you're serious or trolling Kruppe. :/
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Kruppe is very touchy : I remember him being very sad in S10 when we were all doing predictions and I wasnt thinking he would make the playoffs...
Ebo called him a noob in his semi so he is upset.
Kruppe : do no mind what people that you dont care about think.
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Did you know Worpex, that Kruppe loves you?
(platonic, ofc)
Kruppe is not trolling about this point - when Kruppe is trolling you got a PM (I do not remember; like 1 or 2 times).
About Ebo, read this:
http://www.ffareplays.com/comment.php?file=S12-%20WestSemi1
In any strategic game, there are boundaries. You imagine any shop except UD for an undead player? You imagine other races' heroes added to your army when given the right gifts?
Anyway, this question of Ebo has a destination.
It is to weaken you, all sworn players to this league, and FML itself.
In my opinion, forbid any of this crap.
It is not good for the league.
The end is near, and I like to thank you Worpex. Rarely we had the same opinion but you are a guy, that I admire and I would bring a lot of beer and booze if we met.
Thank you.
For everything.
To my friends Renaud, Ugrilainen, Wrecktify, Slythe, Magadansky, Practicemage, and whomever I forgot being drunk as I am now:
ALL THE BEST!
Ah, Seksi, I love you.
LW, thanks for your effort.
Farewell,
Kruppe
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Same here, Worpex. I think this is a problem with trolls like me and him, people can never tell when we are putting our heart out to be stabbed by many a rusty bodkin.
Kruppe I apologized about comments in your game, and don't mind me, I'm just a noob myself, so my comments aren't worth anything. (I explained my feelings on it. I believed Darker, who is one my favorite NE players basically lost because you suicided him, and this made me very bitter. Sorry if you have a problem with this.)
If you have anything to add to the discussion, please do, maybe I'm not seeing some obvious problem with this, and if you or someone else argued back, we could prevent some horrible games from happening.
PS. Well yeah, this is WC3, not SC, Heroes and Items are part of the game, just like WoW I suppose. What's wrong with that? This is what makes WC3 such a unique game!
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In any strategic game, there are boundaries. You imagine any shop except UD for an undead player? You imagine other races' heroes added to your army when given the right gifts?
Umm, there is something wrong with this? This makes for AWESOME games. See last season's semi where I got DK Lich MK combo. See this season's R4 game where Ugri won by using UD + HU Steam Tanks. I'm sure there are a few other games I'm forgetting, but they were all awesome.