Macro vs Micro & Maga vs Fat coaches

[darkermirror]

I completely disagree with what you said about maga having bad macro
his macro is amazing, that's why he get's far

watch more of his games: he knows when to hoard when to go 100 when to mass expand etc.

[rygorych]

i wouldn't say tha maga has bad macro, but as good as his micro(ofc)

He can't win a game vs all top players for the life of him, unless there is someone too op in game with him (e.g. darkness).

I give Maga credit for using the weakest FFA race well, but I take that credit away for doing same hero combo same strat every single game.

"Ok" Mr. Orc BM-TC-SH on market map

The reason you think maga has bad macro decision making, is because hes always getting 2v1.  That's not because he made bad decisions, it's because everyone is afraid of him.

OMG I went BM once... Trust me, not happening again in awhile.

He is getting 2v1ed exactly because he is not very good at macro.

To be fair, though, even if he did get better at macro, he'd still get teamed, just because he made such a name for himself. Sort of like a boy who cried wolf.

[FML|Renaud]

So basically you are saying "Maga should not play a hoarding game, because he will be hit anyway"  isn't that macro according to your wrong definition?

[darkermirror]

now you are getting ridiculous in ur arguing ebo

have u seen- this is one of x examples -his fml season win, the final with nooblex, wrecktify and nline. or his fml final vs htrt humanstar ->he didn't do bad at all. or his game with darkness, duck and ugri. the is only good with worse players is BS.
he owned them with gold and also macro and that was not the only time

he gets teamed cos of fear, same reason yane got teamed etc
if you are in a game with 4ppl in maga it is natural to not want to be eliminated by him through micro/macro wars and thus you help kill him when teaming him. this fear unfortunately for maga goes so far that one person ends sacrificing his win chances for this.
however maga can be proud of it because it isn't easy to instill a whole society with well earned respect in the manner he has.

[rygorych]

If his goal is to instill fear and get teamed and then cry about it, then all the power to him!

Nline wasn't a particularly good player, I wouldn't call that match a top level, really.
Like I said, Maga can win, especially if there is a good orc in game, because then others team the orc instead. He only lasted in FML10 final because it was a 3way.

[rygorych]

So basically you are saying "Maga should not play a hoarding game, because he will be hit anyway"  isn't that macro according to your wrong definition?

I'm not sure where I said that.

Maga is in a position where he is going to lose vs 3 smart players no matter what... except if there is a strong orc in game, in which case orc gets focused, and maga can excel in a 3way. His reputation is such that people like to team him but not suicide him. So his goal should be to achieve a quick 3 way, and then play low key, wait for other 2 to get mad and suicide each other (see his market game vs darkness in S10).

The problem is, Maga can't achieve a quick 3 way unless someone helps him (see s10 final). He can't finish a decent/good player quick (ud sucks at base killing, making it even harder for him), and if he tries to tome a player regularly (a retarded strat, in most cases, btw), he gets too strong, and gets teamed.

The reason I'm saying his macro is not very good is because
#1: he rarely (if ever) double teches. Every top macro Ud's goal should be to double tech without using triple nuke cheese. People hate triple ud cheese as much as triple orc or triple hu (I'm sure Rena going to deny this). And someone like maga can make it super annoying with endless hit and run. Not going triple cheese immediately lets people think that they will have less of an annoyance out of you = they will be less likely to irrationally team you
Secondly, if he double teches quietly, he can properly defend against base races (which is what kills him often)

#2 he is an ego player, which means in a 4way he is going to hit irrationally, without proper consideration. See recent market game vs NE ORC ORC. He doesn't scout either orc, focuses NE, gets his ass kicked by bryan, cries about orc imba. Can anything else spell out "bad"?

#3 he doesn't change up his game play. Every single game he plays, he does the same thing. People know what to expect from him. Enough said. Better players either stay underdog and do same strat quietly and correctly (l77), or change up depending on the match, and can potentially come up with something new (persuade, lightweight, htrt).

All of these are very real suggestions to improve his winning rate vs top players. I'm sure he will ignore them, of course, because maga has a huge ass ego, unlike a much better ud like Duck who has both good micro and macro.

[Wrecktify]

Ebony is right.



ZULU POWER 

[FML|Renaud]

It's funny because your argument is counter intuitive.
He should go dual race?  If you watch the past fml final, all players stop fighitng once yane got a peasant, and went 220 (dase couldn't go 100 :P)  in his main, to kill said peasant (they did that twice).  How can any ud ever go dual tech w/o getting teamed in a high level FFA?  It's basicly screaming "I HAVE MASS GOLD!".  (You manged to pull it off in your semi because the players where not scared of you, and they had little experience facing a good dual techer ud... which they could have gotten if you din't make an mk :P)
Dual race is fine if you are against inexperienced or mediocre players that wont team you for it.

And you have part of a point.  I hated triple nuke cheese... when I was playing ladder 8 years ago.  Orc has NO reason to be scared of ud hero (i don't care how fast they are, or how much dmg the nuke does, between purge and hexastomp, they will die).  Like wise Hu has very good anti ud nuke  (bolt light) and the typical army is gryph/tank.  By the time you finish killing the gryph (if you can... with all the healing/staff) it's sad if he din't manage to either tank your main or nuke your hero.  Elf?  Yeah for elf nuke and run is deadly as hell.... looks like we found a hero combo that's valid vs elf! yay!
Nuke and Run is imba vs mediocre players, but it's only good vs the rest of them. (Unlike other hero combo who are imba even vs micro players)



AND macro is controlling your economy, not everything that is not micro

[daselend]

So you apply your arbitrary definition of macro to the few games you've seen of maga after showing up from your hiatus and call him "bad"?

Macro in the general sense is everything dealing with your economy. This includes some aspects of decision-making of course, such as when to go 80, what to spend your money on. Maga is very, very good at that.

Maybe you wanna stop calling players way ahead of you in skill "bad" and blame their "huge ass ego" for not listening to YOU? Sorry for the language, but in reality its you who should really get his head out of his ass.

[rygorych]

Dase you're basically Maga who plays orc, except that gets you even more teamed because orc is OP. I'm sure you're totally on his side. Show me a replay where Maga wins vs 3 good players please. I know of one such replay, market vs darkness johny murrock and he won thanks to early 3way/darkness taking up heat/suicide + stay quiet like I mentioned in my tips.

Here is my litmus test for figuring out if a player has good macro or not:
If I clone myself and put that player in a game with 3 of me, does he have an equal chance (25%)? That's not the case with maga. 3 of me would be smart enough to team him when he does he cookie cutter shit yet again. On the other hand someone like l77 would have 25%, because he'd be smart enough about playing the right way to keep an illusion of balance, and strike out at the right point in time.


And once again, you're applying SC 1v1's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. I apply WC3 FFA's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. But that's semantics. Really, who cares?


And lastly, you bring up my own skill. Are we discussing my skill here? Where/when did I claim that I'm good or better than player X? Or are you saying that me being low skill doesn't allow me to criticize others? Oh so fat b-ball coaches can't say shit to actual players because they don't play b-ball as well? OK son.



P.S. You keep mentioning this Yane person, I have no idea who that is, except one game where he made aboms vs orc. Anyone who does that is basically bad. Ud letting orc hoard 40k, good job, except no, he's bad.

[Magadansky]

Stop feeding the troll. If he honestly believes in his "arguments" then he is just delusional, just see how he says "three of me will team him" without realizing that I will kill at least one of those noob. If the players who suffers the most from my army doesnt stop, is this teaming or PREteaming (rhetorical question of course)? But thats hard to digest for someone who when he hears my name, shits in his pants.

And in your own words, three of me won't team you but you still never win.

[rygorych]

Stop feeding the troll. If he honestly believes in his "arguments" then he is just delusional, just see how he says "three of me will team him" without realizing that I will kill at least one of those noob. If the players who suffers the most from my army doesnt stop, is this teaming or PREteaming (rhetorical question of course)? But thats hard to digest for someone who when he hears my name, shits in his pants.

And in your own words, three of me won't team you but you still never win.

I'd have about 25% chance to win vs 3 magas, because they would all run around like morons attacking each other without any idea of what's going on elsewhere. One of them would try to tome me, I'll cry for help, another maga will hit maga who hit me, and I will finish them both at the right time.

Maga vs 3 ebos would have ~1% chance to win. I'd love a game of Ebo Maga Q l77.

In other words, your reply is exactly like I expected. Let's not feed the trolls, let's feed Maga's giant ego instead!

[Magadansky]

You are so delusional and afraid, it is funny :)))

[FML|Renaud]

Actually 3 maga and 1 ebo, maga would win 99.9% of the time

Why?  Simple!  Like you said maga has this honor thing, where he probably wouldn't team someone until he is the strongest, so the game would be two 1v1 (and he would probably go quick 80, since like you said, UD needs high hero to be competitive, so early aggression is good ffa sense (what you call macro))

I'm guessing that 90% of the time, Maga would win his 1v1 vs you, then enter a 3 way.  And in the 10% where you win that intial 1v1, you would probably be teamed for being orc.  And assuming you are not orc... well your odds of winning just dropped again.  And they would probably team you once you start manipulation, to keep the game clean and simple.

And once again, you're applying SC 1v1's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. I apply WC3 FFA's definition of macro to WC3 FFA. But that's semantics. Really, who cares?

and this is where you are wrong.  WC3 FFA is what?  It's us.  And we decided long ago to have the same meaning as 1v1 for macro, and we added the term "FFA sense" to explain the rest of the stuff.

[rygorych]

You are so delusional and afraid, it is funny :)))

Ego talk /yawn.